Friday, April 09, 2010

Has Transcendental Meditation Produced Human Excellence?

One of our many wonderful readers, Tanemon, made the following suggestion for a posting. Thank you, Tanemon, for coming up with this excellent idea for a new essay when I was too busy doing my income taxes to think up a new article!

(Quote from Tanemon's comment of April 9, 2010):

"In the past week or so - due to the encouraging fact that we had Fred Travis's attention over at MUM - it occurred to me that a good focussed discussion might be evoked by the question: "Has TM produced human excellence?" In his early talks and writings for Westerners (such as the Science of Being and Art of Living), MMY stressed that excellence would be an outcome of TM. The fullfillment of psychology, the fulfillment of sociology, the discovery of the wealth within, the support of Almighty Nature etc. The implication, or explicit message, was always that these should produce people of great fulfillment, wisdom, finesse, and accomplishment.

I realize there would be very many ideas and/or measures of excellence - academic achievements, artistic recognition, innovation and invention, notable social leadership, among many others. Maybe we could share our observations about how this has worked out for committed TMers. And it could be of interest to the folks over at MUM."

30 comments:

jb said...

Are you asking for an objective measure?  Like IQ, GRE scores, wealth, etc? Or just in general, like judging one's own personal fulfillment?  How would one conclude that it is TM?  And do you mean regular TM practitioners who don't fall into your cult critique?   I would think that if one is a success or great in some way, it would be part of a synergistic combination of personal, genetic, and just pure "luck".   Like Bill Gates wealth.  It came from a fortunate accident when IBM could not contact the first company to make the OS for the early PC.  Would Gates be worth billions if that did not happen?

As to research proving stuff, they are probably all suspect.   This is not just a TM failing, all human potential type of claims are really unsupported.  Does mindfulness really do all that that is claimed? Yeah, and Rolfing, Primal screams, and orgone boxes do wonders too.

Me I meditate and feel recharged, centered, and even happy.  Whats wrong with that?  Perhaps I'm still a poor beast of a human speciman far from excellent.  But, who's to say?  Maybe one little action I do will have profound good butterfly wing effects later long after I'm gone.  And, in that sense, I am the greatest.   :)

Tanemon said...

Well, speaking for myself (and I do want others besides myself to think about this and post), I'd say 'answer the question in whatever way seems appropriate to you'.  That could be via reflection on your personal experience, or by way of broad observation, or anecdote, or in terms of the results of third-party research...  or the standing of learning institutions like MUM, etc.  Theoretically - because of MMY's sweeping forecasts for the TM movement - we'd expect the results of some 5 million or more TMers to have produced a whole lot of notable and encouraging results... would we not?

Gina said...

Well, the TM Organization now produces its own blog (to compete with us?).
One might review this slick marketing blog for deemed excellence produced by TM:

http://www.tm.org/blog/

Of note to me, personally, on the new TMOrg blog : one of the listed "bloggers" wanted to marry me about 30 years ago.  I declined as he was "too devoted for me."  (my rationale at the time).
That person has since lived for decades jumping from one vaulted position to another in the TM Movement.

The family of another young woman listed as a TM "blogger" was close with my family.  She and my daughter attended Maharishi elementary school together.  I last saw said lovely poised young woman in 1998 when I returned to Iowa for the wedding of a my good friend's daughter.  After her Maharishi elementary school, high school and university experience, the now-TM blogger was sequestered on the Mother Divine Program in 1998.  She cornered me in the back of the wedding reception to talk privately, about her desire to leave, her fears of the outside world "Gina" she asked me, "How did you make friends on the outside?  Do your children have friends?  How did they go to school or find jobs?"  Despite my encouragement, she never the cult.  Now she's clearly lauded as a gifted young adult spokesperson for all the wonderfulness (entrapment) that TM offers to the vulnerable.

g :)

Gregg said...

<p>One of the side effects of taking TM very seriously in the 70’s  and 80’s was that it took my attention away from my career and focused it on enlightenment. I can remember very close friends, myself included, giving up their budding careers in the visual arts, music, writing, culinary and education, in order to go to residence courses, become TM teachers or learn the siddhis in order to practice in a group environment somewhere, taking any jobs that did not interfere with program times.
</p><p> 
</p><p>Though I eventually took to a career in the graphic arts, I never pursued it with the total absorption and dedication needed to be at the top of the field during my young adult life, and when I finally did toward middle age, I found myself playing catch-up to a younger, more hungrier and determined tech savvy generation, though I was always considered the calm one.
</p><p> 
</p><p>I think research should be done to measure how the practice of TM or any other spiritually goal orientated practice that takes a large chunk of one’s day and life, can effect and stunt the careers and drive for excellence in any desired field or occupation.
</p>

Kate said...

I practiced TM from 1972-1994 and the TM siddhis from 1994-2007. (close to 36 years) total. It brought out the worst in me in terms of my relationship to strength training and cardio fitness because I spent so much of my time sitting which was rewarded by the release of endorphins, and I had no time to get active physically. Because of my poor physical condition from spending time sitting rounding and on CCP, I was not able to "hop" in any vigorous way. I am paying the price now and find it a challenge to change my relationship to vigorous exercise. How can TM bring out the full potential of the person when the body is not very active? Also, long time rounders in Fairfield are pale, lacking vitamin D from a lack of exposure to the sun, and lacking in iron, some becoming
quite anemic due to the diet provided at Anapurna. I felt contentment when meditating. I thought that it made me a better person, and in some ways it may have brought that contentment into my mornings. However, the habit limited my flexibility and I became very tense, anxious and testy if the circumstances of life happened in such a way as to preclude me being able to meditate. My husband's feedback to this question of whether or not I was a better person when meditating or now when I no longer practice TM, is that he sees no difference. I expeerience that same contentment that I used to get with TM, I get now when I contemplate or pray, so that is still accessible to me without all the other trappings and routines that came with TM. (Rest, Yoga, Pranayama, TM, Sidhis, mandala music). I find that without the TM sidhi routine, I have more freedom of choice with my time and more ability to respond to the needs of others around me. I think that makes me a better person of service, more selfless and less tense about "missing a program".

JB said...

I'm agreement with Gregg about the need for real research on how all spiritually based practices effect ordinary life.   Note that MMY did not invent these laudatory accomplishments, they are part of the "yogic" literature and are also found in other Eastern and Western disciplines.   Ever read about Milarepa flying thru the sky?  

The thing is, are these practices capable of being integrated into householder life and still produce the subjective benefits that they claim to have.  Else why not just take future drugs that will use nanotechnology to manipulate the endorphins on demand.  They can already stimulate OOBE using magnetic fields!

I think part of the problem is that TM and similar approaches are incomplete teachings.   They emphasize the inward stroke and thereby stimulate a type of energy and consciousness that is NOT synergistic with living.  What they need is the outward stroke.  I think if you do research you will find that there is plenty of info on this.  Like combining meditation with martial arts is effective.  Or combining meditation with non-apolegetic religious action (not just belief) is good too.  Also, there are energetic approaches that emphasize the use of a "Microcosmic Orbit".   Pretty cool stuff out there.   Why let a group tell you what you can and cannot explore?

Karina said...

One very crude, but widely used, measurement of  health, i.e. "human excellence," has always been life span.  It has been my subjective experience that some TMers have had a shockingly short lifespan.  I believe it is due to the long term effects of TM.

For instance, I have just recently learned that my ex-husband, a Mahesh devotee for decades,  who later switched allegiance to Yogananda, recently died at the age of 62.   His cause of death was "natural," as a complication of adult-onset diabetes.  

The truth is that my TM-ex had a very self-indulgent life-style, including a long daily meditation program,  a carbohydrate-rich diet, and little time for exercise.  He gained a huge amount of weight, which brought on the diabetes, and eventually killed him.  To me, this is hardly a natural death.   I think if he had pursued a more mainstream course in life, he would not have died so young.  His grandfather and father lived longer lives than he did, despite their vices of drinking and smoking cigars and cigarettes.

Knowing of so many cases of ill-health amongst long-time TMers, and then add in the suicides, well........I think the results could be quite shocking.  Someone should study it, but it certainly won't be the TMO.

RM said...

It is my opinion that the TM organization publishes its opinion as incontrovertable fact. Thus, TM can only be good for everyone and if there appears to be evidence that it is not good, then it is obvious that the individual is at fault for not participating in the program correctly.

That so many appear to believe that what the TM organization publishes is fact and only fact speaks to the religious or dogma like nature of the Maharishi's teaching.

But, if we want to deal in fact, then we have first to ask what the criterion for evaluating "human excellence" is and who subscribes to that criterion. What does the TM program actually do? That depends upon who is gathering the data and what data gathering criterion is being used.

As far as I am able to determine from observation, the TM program does nothing more or less than any religious or social program. People come and go. People make positive claims and negative ones. Like many religions and other kinds of organizations, the TM organization makes lots of money. Like many religions and other kinds of organizations, the TM organization takes lots of money from its membership and like many religions and other kinds of organizations, the TM organization employs whatever means it feels necessary to get that money.

So the question remains: what is human excellence and where do you find it - As far as I am able to observe, the TM program accomplishes no more and no less than any other.

RM said...

It is my opinion that the TM organization publishes its opinion as incontrovertable fact. Thus, TM can only be good for everyone and if there appears to be evidence that it is not good, then it is obvious that the individual is at fault for not participating in the program correctly.

That so many appear to believe that what the TM organization publishes is fact and only fact speaks to the religious or dogma like nature of the Maharishi's teaching.

But, if we want to deal in fact, then we have first to ask what the criterion for evaluating "human excellence" is and who subscribes to that criterion. What does the TM program actually do? That depends upon who is gathering the data and what data gathering criterion is being used.

As far as I am able to determine from observation, the TM program does nothing more or less than any religious or social program. People come and go. People make positive claims and negative ones. Like many religions and other kinds of organizations, the TM organization makes lots of money. Like many religions and other kinds of organizations, the TM organization takes lots of money from its membership and like many religions and other kinds of organizations, the TM organization employs whatever means it feels necessary to get that money.

So the question remains: what is human excellence and where do you find it - As far as I am able to observe, the TM program accomplishes no more and no less than any other.

Gregg said...

During the time I practiced TM and the eventual sidhis for 12 years, I always thought that we would naturally reach our highest human potential in all areas of life that we valued, be it spiritual or material. So that would have been my definition of human excellence during that time period. 

My observation was that the TMO was more interested in getting already established people who had reached a platform of human excellence in their field, like the arts and sciences, and then make them practitioners of the program for PR reasons. Especially from the field of entertainment, like the Beatles, Mia Farrow, Mike Love, Donovan to Doug Henning and now David Lynch.

It's not to say that someone practicing TM cannot achieve human excellence, but the amount of time and money needed to feel that one is practicing the program 100%, can eat valuable time away from actually attaining mastery in the field of ones desire or occupation, unless your only personal vision was to be monk or indentured servant to a quasi spiritual institution. I do believe that some TM'ers and Sidha's had success in creating businesses in Fairfield and elsewhere, but the number does not seem very high from my memory.

Too bad just meditating 15 to 20 minutes a day was not enough to reach the goal of enlightenment and world peace in say 5 years ... which I remember being told in the very early 70's ...  that would of been one way of achieving spiritual human excellence, but it's been 40 years now and though patience is a virtue, mine was ringed dry from the promised excellence washer of consciousness long, long time ago.

RM said...

I don't know why/how my 2 cents worth got posted twice. Once was enough. But it may be useful to follow up on my first paragraph (<span>It is my opinion that the TM organization publishes its opinion as incontrovertable fact. Thus, TM can only be good for everyone and if there appears to be evidence that it is not good, then it is obvious that the individual is at fault for not participating in the program correctly.</span>)

If TM is so easy that it can be done by anyone and therefore it must follow that everyone can expect the results the Maharishi preaches, then to claim that someone who is getting results that are not those specified or desires is therefore doing it wrong raises the question (and eyebrow): if it is so easy, how can it be done incorrectly. But the dogma of the TM organization obviously admits that it can be and is done incorrectly and by people who have been properly taught by other people who have been properly trained to teach. So this connundrum in and of itself tends in my observation to clearly underscore the inherent contradiction in the TM dogma. It is also obvious enough that the TM organization only looks for data and claims that support its hypothesis about human exellence and what that is. Any evidence to the contrary can be dismissed on the basis of incorrect practise. It's neat and tidy (and false logic) and amounts to about the same sort of foolishness as the current Catholic Pope once claiming that the good of the church outweighed the harm done to children by aberrant priests.

"Studies have shown" is another lapse in human excellence (at least excellence in thought) when it is a point of legality that no one can know what anyther is thinking. Therefore to test the TM program to PROVE that it is wonderful is based on an absurdity because it cannot be known or shown what the person who was testes was actually thinking. And, as becomes painfully obvious to anyone who has conducted any kind of test, if you test enough people, you will get every manner of absurd answer, no matter what the question, no matter what the teaching. So, once again, the TM program and the TM organization have cheated on their "studies" by either only publishing responses that align with the preconceived hypothesis or have only tested individuals who are likely to generate the results desired or pre-tested until such individuals were deemed suitable for "scientific testing".

Please excuse my overuse of quotation marks. It is inappropriate, yet the buzz words of the Maharishi and the TM organization need to be singled out so that we can try to see them in a context wherein they do not carry their dogmatic weight.

RM said...

I don't know why/how my 2 cents worth got posted twice. Once was enough. But it may be useful to follow up on my first paragraph (<span>It is my opinion that the TM organization publishes its opinion as incontrovertable fact. Thus, TM can only be good for everyone and if there appears to be evidence that it is not good, then it is obvious that the individual is at fault for not participating in the program correctly.</span>)

If TM is so easy that it can be done by anyone and therefore it must follow that everyone can expect the results the Maharishi preaches, then to claim that someone who is getting results that are not those specified or desires is therefore doing it wrong raises the question (and eyebrow): if it is so easy, how can it be done incorrectly. But the dogma of the TM organization obviously admits that it can be and is done incorrectly and by people who have been properly taught by other people who have been properly trained to teach. So this connundrum in and of itself tends in my observation to clearly underscore the inherent contradiction in the TM dogma. It is also obvious enough that the TM organization only looks for data and claims that support its hypothesis about human exellence and what that is. Any evidence to the contrary can be dismissed on the basis of incorrect practise. It's neat and tidy (and false logic) and amounts to about the same sort of foolishness as the current Catholic Pope once claiming that the good of the church outweighed the harm done to children by aberrant priests.

"Studies have shown" is another lapse in human excellence (at least excellence in thought) when it is a point of legality that no one can know what anyther is thinking. Therefore to test the TM program to PROVE that it is wonderful is based on an absurdity because it cannot be known or shown what the person who was testes was actually thinking. And, as becomes painfully obvious to anyone who has conducted any kind of test, if you test enough people, you will get every manner of absurd answer, no matter what the question, no matter what the teaching. So, once again, the TM program and the TM organization have cheated on their "studies" by either only publishing responses that align with the preconceived hypothesis or have only tested individuals who are likely to generate the results desired or pre-tested until such individuals were deemed suitable for "scientific testing".

Please excuse my overuse of quotation marks. It is inappropriate, yet the buzz words of the Maharishi and the TM organization need to be singled out so that we can try to see them in a context wherein they do not carry their dogmatic weight.

RM said...

I don't know why/how my 2 cents worth got posted twice. Once was enough. But it may be useful to follow up on my first paragraph (<span>It is my opinion that the TM organization publishes its opinion as incontrovertable fact. Thus, TM can only be good for everyone and if there appears to be evidence that it is not good, then it is obvious that the individual is at fault for not participating in the program correctly.</span>)

If TM is so easy that it can be done by anyone and therefore it must follow that everyone can expect the results the Maharishi preaches, then to claim that someone who is getting results that are not those specified or desires is therefore doing it wrong raises the question (and eyebrow): if it is so easy, how can it be done incorrectly. But the dogma of the TM organization obviously admits that it can be and is done incorrectly and by people who have been properly taught by other people who have been properly trained to teach. So this connundrum in and of itself tends in my observation to clearly underscore the inherent contradiction in the TM dogma. It is also obvious enough that the TM organization only looks for data and claims that support its hypothesis about human exellence and what that is. Any evidence to the contrary can be dismissed on the basis of incorrect practise. It's neat and tidy (and false logic) and amounts to about the same sort of foolishness as the current Catholic Pope once claiming that the good of the church outweighed the harm done to children by aberrant priests.

"Studies have shown" is another lapse in human excellence (at least excellence in thought) when it is a point of legality that no one can know what anyther is thinking. Therefore to test the TM program to PROVE that it is wonderful is based on an absurdity because it cannot be known or shown what the person who was testes was actually thinking. And, as becomes painfully obvious to anyone who has conducted any kind of test, if you test enough people, you will get every manner of absurd answer, no matter what the question, no matter what the teaching. So, once again, the TM program and the TM organization have cheated on their "studies" by either only publishing responses that align with the preconceived hypothesis or have only tested individuals who are likely to generate the results desired or pre-tested until such individuals were deemed suitable for "scientific testing".

Please excuse my overuse of quotation marks. It is inappropriate, yet the buzz words of the Maharishi and the TM organization need to be singled out so that we can try to see them in a context wherein they do not carry their dogmatic weight.

JB said...

Has being an ex-TM practitioner ever produced human excellence?  <just></just>

Gregg said...

An excellent question though!  :)  


If the answer were yes, having to be an ex-TMer to achieve excellence ... it would mean that one would have to practice TM for some period of time before quitting it, which makes the whole Tm + ex-TM = Excellence a rather strange symbiotic equation, making the new TM Blog and TM-Free partners in creating human excellence ... or something like that.

It's like a whole new twist on the question, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear and see it except for a yogi meditating on a tiger skin in bliss consciousness ... did it really fall? So if one practices TM and creates no excellence, yet quits doing TM and does, is it really excellence ... even with a yogi sitting nearby on a tiger skin not in bliss consciousness? 

Laurie said...

Karina - I'm so sorry to hear of the dealth of your ex-husband at an early age.  Even though you parted ways a long time ago, I'm sure it must bring up some very sad memories, both about your relationship, and the wasted lives that can result from destructive cults. 

ME said...

I enjoy how short and simple the TM practice is. It's like turning on a button and feeling a "woosh" of stress relief and energy, and then you just go about your day however you feel. It's really easy to fit it in any schedule, I happily wake up 20 minutes earlier than before I started meditating and it's pretty easy to find 20 minutes to do it again later on in the day. People in this blog don't seem to understand the amount of real research that has gone into this technique. Do your own research, hook a TMer's brain to an EEG, that's a really easy test to prove that you should also be skeptic of the skeptics. It's OK to be skeptic, be as skeptic as you want, but be fair. Whenever I recommend it to people I tell them to do their research and ask as many skeptical questions as they want when meeting with an instructor before learning. Also avoid people claiming TM that aren't affiliated with Maharishi's TM. Just like all the religions, science, and just about anything attractive, people can claim they are practicing TM but are really creating a cult. Unlike a cult, all TM is is learning a simple technique and having it. It's not even a philosophy, just a technique, and after the follow up to make sure you're doing it right you don't have to commit to anything or meet up again, you just go about your business and see things get better.

ME said...

People believe TM works as a fact generally out of personal experience and scientific research that can easily be verified. What people call facts are things that are proven by science, not belief. It is possible to meditate incorrectly, for example, if you come out of meditation too quickly it can give rise to headache. Human excellence can be seen with rising I.Q., 100% brain coherence measured on an EEG (during practice), reduced anxiety, ect. I highly recommend looking into the actual scientific research which can be and has been verified by many third party sources. Are you aware there are over 600 scientific studies that prove it's claims? The National Institutes of Health has also granted over $20 million to research TM and it's health effects. Also, it is established as a non-profit organization by the government. The real proof is doing it yourself, but I wouldn't ask that of anyone who isn't comfortable with it. When I meditate, I feel a "woosh" of stress relief and creative energy and then I simply go about my day with that spark. I would like to meet an ex-TMer if one exists, it's hard to imagine. Although, just like religion, science, philosophy, and anything else attractive people have found a way to use those terms to develop cults which confuse people's understandings of what they actually are. Remember when researching TM research Maharishi's TM, TM.org.

Karina said...

Laurie --- Thank you for your compassionate insight.  Yes, it has been a shock.   I especially feel for his mother, who recently was widowed, now she has just lost her eldest son.  She also has no grandchildren (to the best of my knowledge).  For a Jewish mom, it is pretty tough on her.  


I'm not sure my ex ever figured it out as to how much his meditation was at fault for his ill health.   I feel confident about the connection, but I think denial can last an entire lifetime.

Gina said...

Well, the life of my children and myself improved immensely AFTER we left the TM community and stopped practicing TM!  The rest of my family is TM-looney, including my father's prolonged painful death despite (or because of?) having given thousands and thousands of dollars for yagyas, gemstones, mystical techniques and unreliable Maharishi AyurVed concotions.  My mother goes next.
Hail to excellence outside the TM Org!
g :)

RM said...

There are a lot of people in jails, prisons and penetentiaries who have high IQ's and many of the other things ME cites as evidence of human excellence. Presumably Osama Bin Laden isn't stupid, he's a very significant individual, too. But is he an example of human excellence? Isn't it like pudding? the proof being in the tasting, not the recipe or the pudding maker. As far as I can tell, the TM organization cherry picks its so called scientific evidence. Real science adjusts its hypothesis based upon evidence. It really looks like the TM organization picks its evidence to support, maintain, preserve and otherwise enshrine the dogma of its hypothesis. The number of suspect "studies" is not proof of anything other than, perhaps, desperation. Having succeeded in coning the government out of money isn't that big an accomplishment.

ME said: <span>I would like to meet an ex-TMer if one exists, it's hard to imagine. Although, just like religion, science, philosophy, and anything else attractive people have found a way to use those terms to develop cults which confuse people's understandings of what they actually are. Remember when researching TM research Maharishi's TM, TM.org.</span>

That's very entertaining. So, now, attractive people are to blame? - I think you must live in a cult if you imagine there are no "ex-TMer" people out there. I think there are more "out" than "in" these days. So manybe TM generates human excellence by showing you how bad life can get if you don't clean up your act and get a life.
<span><span> – </span>Flag</span><span><span> </span></span><span></span><span><span> – </span>Delete</span><span><span> – </span>Edit</span><span><span> – </span>Moderate</span>

RM said...

There are a lot of people in jails, prisons and penetentiaries who have high IQ's and many of the other things ME cites as evidence of human excellence. Presumably Osama Bin Laden isn't stupid, he's a very significant individual, too. But is he an example of human excellence? Isn't it like pudding? the proof being in the tasting, not the recipe or the pudding maker. As far as I can tell, the TM organization cherry picks its so called scientific evidence. Real science adjusts its hypothesis based upon evidence. It really looks like the TM organization picks its evidence to support, maintain, preserve and otherwise enshrine the dogma of its hypothesis. The number of suspect "studies" is not proof of anything other than, perhaps, desperation. Having succeeded in coning the government out of money isn't that big an accomplishment.

ME said: <span>I would like to meet an ex-TMer if one exists, it's hard to imagine. Although, just like religion, science, philosophy, and anything else attractive people have found a way to use those terms to develop cults which confuse people's understandings of what they actually are. Remember when researching TM research Maharishi's TM, TM.org.</span>

That's very entertaining. So, now, attractive people are to blame? - I think you must live in a cult if you imagine there are no "ex-TMer" people out there. I think there are more "out" than "in" these days. So manybe TM generates human excellence by showing you how bad life can get if you don't clean up your act and get a life.
<span><span> – </span>Flag</span><span><span> </span></span><span></span><span><span> – </span>Delete</span><span><span> – </span>Edit</span><span><span> – </span>Moderate</span>

RM said...

There are a lot of people in jails, prisons and penetentiaries who have high IQ's and many of the other things ME cites as evidence of human excellence. Presumably Osama Bin Laden isn't stupid, he's a very significant individual, too. But is he an example of human excellence? Isn't it like pudding? the proof being in the tasting, not the recipe or the pudding maker. As far as I can tell, the TM organization cherry picks its so called scientific evidence. Real science adjusts its hypothesis based upon evidence. It really looks like the TM organization picks its evidence to support, maintain, preserve and otherwise enshrine the dogma of its hypothesis. The number of suspect "studies" is not proof of anything other than, perhaps, desperation. Having succeeded in coning the government out of money isn't that big an accomplishment.

ME said: <span>I would like to meet an ex-TMer if one exists, it's hard to imagine. Although, just like religion, science, philosophy, and anything else attractive people have found a way to use those terms to develop cults which confuse people's understandings of what they actually are. Remember when researching TM research Maharishi's TM, TM.org.</span>

That's very entertaining. So, now, attractive people are to blame? - I think you must live in a cult if you imagine there are no "ex-TMer" people out there. I think there are more "out" than "in" these days. So manybe TM generates human excellence by showing you how bad life can get if you don't clean up your act and get a life.
<span><span> – </span>Flag</span><span><span> </span></span><span></span><span><span> – </span>Delete</span><span><span> – </span>Edit</span><span><span> – </span>Moderate</span>

RM said...

I do not understand why my replies apear multiple times. I hope the site administrator can delete the extras.

The Maharishi seems to have turned his simple 20 meditation into a cult with a mountain of silliness. I didn't have anything but good things to say about my TM 2x20, at least not for the first couple of years. Then it began to wear off. Yes, ME, already know you are going to suggest checking! Got checked until I could recite the whole damn thing. But not everyone had my experience. I knew people like you, ME, who continued to enjoy TM. Then, of course, the Maharishi began to add things to buy. Then many troubles began to surface, too. Then more and more blame was put on the sufferers who had started TM in good faith to be free from suffering. But the lie of TM persisted: something good is happening.

And, to be sure, something good was happening. The Maharishi was getting richer and richer.

My life got increasingly more enjoyable after leaving everything to do with TM. It was only recently that a friend of a friend pointed out this Blog and I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth. If TM works for you, that's great. If you keep hanging on hoping it will start working, hoping that if you BUY more things will get better, then that's not so good.

I take a little exception, ME, when you say TM is not even a philosophy, just a technique. That makes it a little difficult to account for the TM organization selling Hindu rituals (done in India) to cure your ailements. TM 2x20 is one thing. The rest is another and it is mainly with that "another" that I ha'e me doubts. That "another" really looks like nothing more than marketing a desperate organization milking its followers for money by dangling really dubious promises. It's hardly scientific. I hope, ME, that you have avoided that aspect of what the Maharishi brought to the West (where I am guessing you reside).

Now, once again, I am going to click on POST just once and ask that this Blog site's administrator delete any duplictions that appear.

------

A note to the Blog editors and contributors. While I'm nobody anybody's every taken much note of, still, I would like to congradulate you on having set up a very nice Blog. There is no doubt in my mind and no room for doubt to creep into my experiences with about a decade of TM. Bad things have happened and it is good for people to have a place like this, gentle and safe, in which to air those hurts and let some old scare tissue degrade in the light of kindness and compassion of others who also know what it's been like.

RM said...

I do not understand why my replies apear multiple times. I hope the site administrator can delete the extras.

The Maharishi seems to have turned his simple 20 meditation into a cult with a mountain of silliness. I didn't have anything but good things to say about my TM 2x20, at least not for the first couple of years. Then it began to wear off. Yes, ME, already know you are going to suggest checking! Got checked until I could recite the whole damn thing. But not everyone had my experience. I knew people like you, ME, who continued to enjoy TM. Then, of course, the Maharishi began to add things to buy. Then many troubles began to surface, too. Then more and more blame was put on the sufferers who had started TM in good faith to be free from suffering. But the lie of TM persisted: something good is happening.

And, to be sure, something good was happening. The Maharishi was getting richer and richer.

My life got increasingly more enjoyable after leaving everything to do with TM. It was only recently that a friend of a friend pointed out this Blog and I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth. If TM works for you, that's great. If you keep hanging on hoping it will start working, hoping that if you BUY more things will get better, then that's not so good.

I take a little exception, ME, when you say TM is not even a philosophy, just a technique. That makes it a little difficult to account for the TM organization selling Hindu rituals (done in India) to cure your ailements. TM 2x20 is one thing. The rest is another and it is mainly with that "another" that I ha'e me doubts. That "another" really looks like nothing more than marketing a desperate organization milking its followers for money by dangling really dubious promises. It's hardly scientific. I hope, ME, that you have avoided that aspect of what the Maharishi brought to the West (where I am guessing you reside).

Now, once again, I am going to click on POST just once and ask that this Blog site's administrator delete any duplictions that appear.

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A note to the Blog editors and contributors. While I'm nobody anybody's every taken much note of, still, I would like to congradulate you on having set up a very nice Blog. There is no doubt in my mind and no room for doubt to creep into my experiences with about a decade of TM. Bad things have happened and it is good for people to have a place like this, gentle and safe, in which to air those hurts and let some old scare tissue degrade in the light of kindness and compassion of others who also know what it's been like.

RM said...

I do not understand why my replies apear multiple times. I hope the site administrator can delete the extras.

The Maharishi seems to have turned his simple 20 meditation into a cult with a mountain of silliness. I didn't have anything but good things to say about my TM 2x20, at least not for the first couple of years. Then it began to wear off. Yes, ME, already know you are going to suggest checking! Got checked until I could recite the whole damn thing. But not everyone had my experience. I knew people like you, ME, who continued to enjoy TM. Then, of course, the Maharishi began to add things to buy. Then many troubles began to surface, too. Then more and more blame was put on the sufferers who had started TM in good faith to be free from suffering. But the lie of TM persisted: something good is happening.

And, to be sure, something good was happening. The Maharishi was getting richer and richer.

My life got increasingly more enjoyable after leaving everything to do with TM. It was only recently that a friend of a friend pointed out this Blog and I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents worth. If TM works for you, that's great. If you keep hanging on hoping it will start working, hoping that if you BUY more things will get better, then that's not so good.

I take a little exception, ME, when you say TM is not even a philosophy, just a technique. That makes it a little difficult to account for the TM organization selling Hindu rituals (done in India) to cure your ailements. TM 2x20 is one thing. The rest is another and it is mainly with that "another" that I ha'e me doubts. That "another" really looks like nothing more than marketing a desperate organization milking its followers for money by dangling really dubious promises. It's hardly scientific. I hope, ME, that you have avoided that aspect of what the Maharishi brought to the West (where I am guessing you reside).

Now, once again, I am going to click on POST just once and ask that this Blog site's administrator delete any duplictions that appear.

------

A note to the Blog editors and contributors. While I'm nobody anybody's every taken much note of, still, I would like to congradulate you on having set up a very nice Blog. There is no doubt in my mind and no room for doubt to creep into my experiences with about a decade of TM. Bad things have happened and it is good for people to have a place like this, gentle and safe, in which to air those hurts and let some old scare tissue degrade in the light of kindness and compassion of others who also know what it's been like.

JB said...

ME:

I think there is TM and there is TM.  In one you learn it and do it twice a day and thats it.  In the other it becomes an overwealming quest with unending new trainings and techniques and assortted stuff that, to me, makes no sense, like astrology and demolishing all planetary buildings cause they don't follow Indian style esthetics (me I can't stand gaudy royalty looking stuff; I'm an ugly American).   I think on this blog the second TM is criticized.  I doubt the first is so controversial, after all, you can substitute prayer, mindfulness techniques, and all sorts of things for those two 20 minute sessions, if you don't like TM and those nefarious mantras.  If done in moderation, it should not disturd real life, might even help.  If your going to go loony, it will probably happen anytime, even brushing your teeth as you stare into infinity.

As to it being a cult?   Anything could become cultic, even anti-cult lifestyle.  And, truth IS cultic.  But, not the converse..... maybe the adidas or pro-keds.

Gina said...

RM, thanks for your contributions and kind words!
John Knapp will work on the problem with the duplicate comments!
g :)

prio said...

to Gina: "the rest of my family is TM-looney".   Many thanx.  As I remember my visit to Fairfield, Iowa I observed  various levels of fanaticism among many of the  meditators!   How exactly that developes is a mystery to me.

Laurie said...

ME, I like that you are trying to be fair and even-handed and open-minded when your non-TM friends ask you if they should start TM, and you say to ply the initiators with as many questions as they can.  I became an initiator in 1974, so I can speak from some experience.  The flaw in your logic is that the initiators were very poorly trained.  They were taught many lies.  They were not told that these were lies, so when a non-meditator asks a question, a sincere and well-meaning initiator will give an answer that makes TM look very good indeed.  That is because they were only taught stuff that would make TM look good.  There were so many areas that they were intentionally kept from knowing about.  For instance, there is a body of research that shows that TM can be harmful to some people, but we initiators were lied to - we were told that every research study shows that TM is helpful.    (You can find this research in either the website trancent or minet.org -- I forget which.)  Another
example of information we initiators were systematically kept from - we were never told that the mantras are actually names of Hindu dieties.  But in fact they are.  Again, you can find that on the above sites.  Or, third example, when Maharishi International University took over Parsons College campus, they shipped out hundreds of library books if the books did not agree with Maharishi's views on things.  (Ask Gina for more details.) 

These are just a few of many many examples.  So, your friends are not going to get all the information they need if they ply initiators with questions.

Best of luck to you in your continued inquiries -- and I'm glad that TM has been of benefit to you!

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