Tuesday, November 09, 2010

Transcendental Meditation: Relaxation or Smokescreen?

A South African writer, Indira Gilbert, contacted a number of us TMFB editors to bring our attention to the TM Org's aggressive push into schools there.

With her permission, below is one of her recent articles in its entirety.

Transcendental Meditation: relaxation or smokescreen?

Article written by Indira Gilbert (Pillay)

Transcendental Meditation (TM) is being introduced in many schools in South Africa (and abroad) under the name of CBE (consciousness-based education) claiming that it assists the learner to concentrate and subsequently produce improved academic results. Not only is its religious nature withheld from those it is planned to recruit – its religious nature is actually denied. The TM movement plans to get into an education system (they report however, that they are already functioning in many schools in South Africa – the names of the schools can be obtained from them) by training educators to meditate. The educators will then meditate with the learners for 15 minutes at the beginning and again at the end of the school day. The school is required to amend its time-table in order to accommodate the programme. Nothing is mentioned about the rights of learners concerning TM or the modifying of the time-table for the entire school.

The TM movement promotes their agenda by:

    1. disguising with the name – CBE ( consciousness-based education) - when approaching the education fraternity;
    2. highlighting the so-called benefits which were conducted by their organization, their followers, or research funded by them; and
    3. not explaining exactly what their method of improving school behaviour/performance is, nor how it is done.

On gaining the interest of those addressed in improving our schools (and everyone wants to improve the school set-up), educators are asked to sign-in for training. The training too is not explained. Only when those interested in the programme go in for training are they exposed to what actually happens.

Those who have signed into the programme are asked to bring an “offering of thanks” to the fathers of the programme – the gurus of the past. The offering has to be cloth (a handkerchief), flowers, fruit, and camphor. A payment too is necessary (all in the name of “an offering of thanks” – how scientific can that be?). A ceremony of initiation is conducted – the Puja c eremony (not a ceremony or ritual of thanksgiving as claimed). The prayers are done in Sanskrit so that the persons interested in the programme do not understand what is being said nor do they realize that they are submitting to deities. Camphor is burnt, water is sprinkled, and flowers, cloth (white handkerchief) and incense, sandal paste, rice, flour, incense, fruit, betel leaf and coconut are offered to the gods and goddesses while the invocation is read. All these have significance to the Hindu faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camphor ; http://www.india-crafts.com/articles/puja-items.html ; http://www.hinduwebsite.com/rituals.asp ). The Hindu ritual of worshipping a deity (Puja/ Pooja), is an elaborate, holy ceremony (http://www.india-crafts.com/articles/puja-items.html ). The English version of the puja chanted during the ceremony can be obtained by writing to the address below.

Persons of Indian origin are usually aware of the meaning of such offerings, of the puja ceremony and Sanskrit prayers – and those who do not belong to the Hindu faith usually back down from the programme. The other ethnic/racial groups do not have any such point of reference and go along with the programme on the basis of what is said to them viz. that it is not a religious practice – only an offering of thanks.

Those who continue in the programme are each given a mantra (individually and secretly) and are led to believe that theirs is a unique mantra which must not be disclosed to anyone lest it lose its significance. How scientific can this be? In reality there are only 15 mantras. Hence 1/15 of the TM practicing population (6.67%) shares the same mantra.

Well-meaning educators (with the consent of governing body members) will subsequently take this programme to their learners who will readily accept it as it comes from their educators and the education system. The parents likewise do not question the programme. If they do, educators who know no better will positively market the programme to them. Even if parents are addressed by the movement itself, they will be provided the same incorrect information as were the educators. This is exactly how the TM movement is moving into various countries. I have been led to believe that they have already entered many so-called “black” and “white” schools in South Africa, and a few of the so-called “Indian” schools. A list of the mantras and the English version is attached.

TM is a religious practice. Beside this aspect being withheld from all whom the movement targets to recruit, when confronted they actually deny the religious nature of TM. They insist that people from any religion can and do practice it. While this may be true it is because the true nature of TM is withheld – people are being misled. This is the worldwide propagation strategy . According to the Maharishi (the founder of TM) TM is:

  • “a path to God.”
  • “the only way to salvation and success in life; there is no other way.”
  • “a very good form of prayer which leads us to the field of the creator, to the source of creation, to the field of God.”
  • a means whereby “a sinner very easily comes out of the field of sin and becomes a virtuous man.”the wisdom of transcendental meditation, which is the knowledge of the integration of life established in the Absolute, came to lotus-born BRAHMA from LORD NARAYANA. (http://trancenet.net/secrets/puja/tradt.shtml )

The Maharishi’s motivation in promoting TM as non-religious is “shrewd opportunism”:

“Whenever and wherever religion dominates the mass consciousness, transcendental deep meditation should be taught in terms of religion….Today when politics is guiding the destiny of man, the teaching should be primarily based on the field of politics and secondarily on the plane of economics…… . It seems, for the present, that this transcendental deep meditation should be made available to the peoples through the agencies of government.”

A mantra is a religious syllable from the Sanskrit language . Mantras are primarily used as spiritual conduits, words or vibrations that instill one-pointed concentration in the devotee. Mantras are interpreted to be effective as vibration, which may include verbal repetition in the form of chanting or internal mental incantation. For this reason great emphasis is put on correct pronunciation. Mantras originated in the Vedic religion of India, later becoming an essential part of the Hindu tradition. Mantras are used in Eastern spiritual traditions to divert the mind by focusing it on a spiritual idea. (http://www.indiaclub.com/Shop/SearchResults.asp?ProdStock=26294 ). Regular chanting is expected to create certain vibrations in the body and mind which would facilitate the spiritual transformation of one's ordinary self. http://www.hinduwebsite.com/rituals.asp

The TM mantras are not “meaningless sounds,” – they are inseparable from the names of religious deities! According to scholar Sir John Woodroffe’s Garland of Letters TM mantras have been widely available throughout India for centuries. The Maharishi himself, in a quote from the Bea­con Light of the Himalyas, explains mantras to be a spiritual tool to be used to call on spiritual beings “on other levels of creation.” He explains the deeper, religious purpose of the mantras :

We do something here according to Vedic rites, particularly, specific chanting to produce an effect in some other world, draw the attention of those higher beings or gods living there. The entire knowledge of the mantras or hymns of the Vedas is devoted to man’s connection, to man’s communication with the higher beings in different strata of creation.”

“For our practice, we select only the suitable mantras of personal gods. Such mantras fetch to us the grace of personal gods and make us happier in every walk of life.”

“The mantra has always been there, recognized as the most effective means among the Hindu religious disciplines” ( Swami Ritajananda).

“The Hindus believe that one can purify oneself from sin by meditation on the mantra, be liberated and attain bliss. This is salvation” ( Swami Ritajananda).

“The sound Om is very important – the Divine Shepherd, i.e. God, Himself becomes the mantra Om” ( Swami Ritajananda).

The mantra is the sound symbol of the Supreme Lord. The Name of the Lord [Om] and the fact of repeating it with faith ensure that the devotee attains all he is searching for ( Swami Ritajananda).

Om (AUM) is considered to be a very sacred word. It is the universal name of the Lord. It imparts divinity to every thing it touches. When it is joined with another word as prefix, the word becomes divine in nature and when it is uttered it creates certain vibrations which have the ability to transform the consciousness. Therefore in Hinduism all chanting is preceded by the use of this sacred syllable (http://www.hinduwebsite.com/rituals.asp; http://sanskritdocuments.org/articles/HinduRituals.pdf).

The mantras are in Sanskrit – this prevents those who are initiated from realizing that they are actually mediat­ing on names of deities. The list of the mantras can be obtained by writing to the address below.

Documented side-effects of TM

It also needs to be noted that there are documented side-effects of TM which, for obvious reasons, is not spelt out. Reported negative effects include muscle twitches, convulsions, headaches, fatigue, sleep disorders, inability to focus, anxiety, panic attacks, depression, dissociation, depersonalization, nervous breakdown, and suicidal inclination.

( http://www.behind-the-tm-facade.org/transcendentalmeditation-harmful-personal.htm )

There are various implications arising from the practice of TM ( http://minet.org/Documents/German-Study ).

Claims Refuted

As an aside, while their many claims sound impressive, an analysis of their studies presents an entirely different picture of the ‘Maharishi Effect’. ( http://www.behind-the-tm-facade.org/transcendental_meditation-harmful-personal.htm ).

Court Ruling

Transcendental Meditation was ruled a religion by the United States District Court, District of New Jersey (October 19, 1977) and the TM group and their literature was removed from all schools. A detail of the court ruling is attached.

Other Issues of concern concerning the introduction of TM into the schools

Permission being obtained from parents for learners to participate in the TM programme will make no difference as most of our parents (and the public) are not aware of what TM really is. Parents will subsequently be giving uninformed permission. As educators (guardians of our children), and should protect our children from any offer which is not open and which intentionally mislead in their presentation.

Some principals/educators in schools in Chatsworth have come together to train for the implementation of the programme despite being advised that the practice is deeply religious-based. I am not against the teaching of religion at school – all religions should be taught at school, but they should be taught as religions. Once TM is accepted into the school system, yoga (another form of Hindu worship) will be introduced for the physical education classes, and we will not even be aware that we are actually practicing Hinduism.

There are the beginnings of a lively debate between TM critics and promoters in the comments following Indira's article. If you are concerned about TM being taught to school children in the schools—or if you are in favor of it, you may want to add your voice to the discussion at http://www.teachersmonthly.com/index.php/2010/10/transcendental-meditation-relaxation-or-smokescreen/comment-page-1/#comment-1606.

TM promoters are certainly in full voice!



John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Thanks for posting this, John. I see the TMO very cynically trying to recruit future (and long-term) funding by getting kids hooked on Mahesh's pie-in-the-sky promises and dubious methodology. It would be very good if any school being approached by the TMO were first to sit its board of directors in front of a video screen and watch David Wants to Fly!

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

I agree, thank you for posting this.

As a side note relating to David Wants To Fly, a few students here just received copies of the film and are trying to show it at MUM or elsewhere in Fairfield. It should be fun.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

How did they get a copy of the film????

Lots of others on this blog would like to be able to also procure a copy instead of waiting for the film to maybe reach their town or city.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

A German student ordered it directly from David.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

This following was posted on FFL several weeks ago:

"The DVD has been released and you can order it from the following URL:


It will play in any DVD player worldwide, with an English soundtrack/subtitles. They'll ship to the US."

(Note from me: If the URL gets broken, just copy and paste into your address bar with no spaces.)

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

The latest from the TMO...Maharishi Light Therapy w/ Gems:

"The Power of Light: Did you know that biophysicists have discovered that the living cells of all plants, animals and human beings emit light? Biophotons of weak electromagnetic waves in the form of light are stored in the cells of all organisms (including you). This light, constantly absorbed and released by the cell (specifically, the DNA in the cell's nucleus) serves as the organism's principal regulating mechanism for all its life processes. This light emission is an expression of the functionality of the living organism. Healthy cells emit more light than unhealthy cells. It's also true that the cells in our body respond to different frequencies and qualities of light from the outside.

The Power of Gems: Did you know that scientists consider gemstones to be the most orderly structures in the physical universe? When light passes through such crystalline structures, it carries with it the orderly properties of the gemstones. In the ancient science of Ayurveda, such coherent light is said to have nourishing, healing affects — able to awaken the natural intelligence and order inherent within our physiology.

Jeff and Mary Murphy, experts in Maharishi Light Therapy with Gems, will give a fascinating talk on how we can benefit from the healing affects of special frequencies of light — and how the process works.

'This therapy works on a very subtle level, the level of the light body or quantum energy field of the body,' says Jeff. 'It is like operating on the level of the sap. By nourishing that subtle level, benefits can be seen on the grosser levels. When the cells of the body are more healthy, coherent and radiant, then the whole body is stronger.'

Maharishi revived many of the ancient Vedic technologies that were once lost in obscurity — the most notable being the Transcendental Meditation technique, now validated by hundreds of scientific research studies. Maharishi Light Therapy with Gems (MLG) is another such technology. Under development for 30 years, it was Maharishi's very last gift and has only recently become available in the United States.

Questions about Light Therapy with Gems? Contact Jeffry or Mary directly at mlg@tm.org or call 859-321-0839."

Oh boy...here we go again!!!

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

This just arrived today from a friend re: this year's DLF fundraiser in NYC. Please note that in this announcement and also at the ChangeBeginsWithin website mentioned at the end that the words "Transcendental Meditation" or acronym "TM" never appears, not even once. Instead it is referred to as "stress-reducing meditation" as if this fund-raising branch of the organization is beginning to distance itself somehow with all the baggage that comes with the mention of Transcendental Meditation or TM. Could this really be the case? Also, take a gander at the ticket packages/prices for this event at the same website...it seems as though part of each package is that the whole group is "introduced" to this stress-reducing meditation. Why don't they just come out and say it: they'll be "initiated" into Transcendental Meditation!!! Enjoy the announcement from David:

Event Co-Hosts: Emily and David Lynch, Donna Karan, Desiree Gruber and Kyle MacLachlan, Harriet and George McDonald, Lisa and Dr. Mehmet Oz, Barbara and Ray Dalio.

Last year at an historic concert at Radio City Music Hall, Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr launched the David Lynch Foundation’s “Change Begins Within” global outreach to teach at-risk adolescents and teens stress-reducing meditation. Since then, nearly 150,000 inner-city students have begun utilizing these techniques to eliminate traumatic stress that undermines academic achievement and short-circuits lives. These students have dramatically better test scores, grades, and graduation rates while drop out rates, suspensions, and expulsions have greatly decreased. The program has the full-hearted support of superintendents, principals, faculty, students, and parents.

More groups of people from all walks of life have come to embrace our program, including veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and their families; homeless adults; children from the streets of Harlem and East LA; American Indians subsisting on impoverished reservations; and incarcerated men and women locked away in maximum security penitentiaries. And the demand has never been greater in New York City, in particular among local schools, veterans groups, and homeless shelter re-entry programs.

I am proud to invite you to the second “Change Begins Within” benefit on Monday December 13, at The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. Russell Brand, Clint Eastwood, Dr. Mehmet Oz, Katy Perry, Russell Simmons, myself, and other very special guests will be part of a very different and exciting evening which lays out as follows:

6:30 p.m. — Great Hall
Cocktail reception

7:30 p.m. — The Grace Rainey Rogers Auditorium
Find out directly from Dr. Oz how you can overcome the build-up of stress (holiday and otherwise) in your own life and hear from Russell, Clint, Katy, and Russell how combat-frayed veterans, inner-city students and New York’s homeless are overcoming the traumatic stresses of their lives.

8:30 p.m. — The Temple of Dendur in the Sackler Wing
in all its mystic beauty will be the setting for dinner with amazing guest entertainment.

I hope you will be part of this extraordinary event and discover firsthand why change begins within. Let it begin with you.

I look forward to seeing you there.

David Lynch

Note from me: I wonder what will be served at the "cocktail" reception???

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

I think there is no question that the TMO is being duplicitous in its attempt to introduce TM into the schools in South Africa. The real question is whether or not it will help or hurt those it is taught to. I'm not an educator, but I know that in some places, like Baltimore, it has been introduced into a few inner-city schools, and it has seemed to help the students concentrate and be less affected by their environment, so they can learn more effectively. Impartial studies (not run by the TMO, that is) should be done to see whether this is true, but it sure beats giving a kid Ritalin or some other mind-altering drug, which has been proven to have life-long harmful effects.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

This kind of marketing and deception is disgusting. What's worse is that it gives a bad rap to some approaches that may indeed help young people. I think a real education would include culturing of the mind-body-consciousness. But, would a simple use of Tai Chi exercises be good enough, for example.

As to TMO, they need to practice an honesty sutra. Gem stones and light from cells. LOL! Even if true, scientifically, it would be quite a feat to prove one can exploit it with new-age mumbo jumbo.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

only my opinion, but getting Maheshism (via TM) into schools is only creating cash-cows to support the TMO in the future

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

it takes about 24+ hours for a comment to appear

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

it takes about 24+ hours for messages to appear

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Your material is excellent and informative. I suggest you re-post it on Indira Gilbert’s article on the South African Teacher’s Monthly e-magazine web site.

The site doesn't appear to be moderated.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...


Future cash-cow? I think one of the most powerful effects of TM is that one becomes very un-TM very quickly. That is, stops doing it very quickly. Is it different for younger people. I don't think so. Culturally the west is simply not orientated to breaking up the day into any kind of silent period, at best they can recite a few words for two minutes or do some obligatory ritual a few times a day, but really sitting. Nah. People who can do this are rare. It is tough, invariably someone has to do more of the work around the house, etc.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

That Ravi Shankar was not a devotee of MMY, afaik. In fact, probably the exact opposite.

Also, maybe you can also target the attempts of religious fundamentalist to subvert education too. Start with Texas schools. I think Creationism and its supporting infrastructure is even worse then TM in schools. Oh wait maybe not. Weren't TMO people told not to read certain books?

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Dear JB9876, I think you are mistaken. I believe Sri Sri Ravi Shankar used to be a follower of MMY. I have an old "Age of Enlightenment" magazine from 1983(?) that has a photo of Ravi Shankar as one of the Ministers on MMY's World Government. I believe he split the TMO and started his own movement. He does not advertise his roots in his publicity.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

There are two Ravi Shankars. The one is the Indian sitarist, who was not a devotee of MMY. The other one (who made himself into a double "Sri Sri") was a disciple at first, but was later rejected by MMY. About his love-hate relationship with his former master, see:


John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Thanks, but I still suspect there was moderation. Actually I had retried to post my comment, but the site rejected it as a "duplicate comment". Then I wrote to the editor about it, again sending him my comment. Never got a reply.

Judging from some of the other content on the site, there does seem to be a strong Christian bias. They might not have liked one or two of my remarks and URLs. Anyway, the site is sponsored by an educational software company, it's not the official mouthpiece of a South African teachers' body.

Well, good for them if they expose TM, but they should take care that they do it in a way that does not alienate the Hindu population. Schools with a Christian majority will quickly reject TM if they find out there are Hindu religious aspects involved. But the area Indira mentions (Chatsworth, Durban) is a predominantly Indian neighbourhood, who may not have a problem with the Hindu aspects of TM. Which means one would need to effectively communicate the truly problematic aspects of the TM movement, rather than focusing overly much on playing the "it's a religion" card.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

This is a very clear insight, JB. Thank you for bring it to our attention. YES, of the many who learnt TM, FEW remained. Of the nearly 800 people to whom I taught TM, I suspect that probably less than 50 stuck with it to any extent and, as far as I know, only 1 became a TM teacher. BUT, and I think this is important as far as understanding Mahesh is concerned, that “1” was important and the 799 just didn’t count, or the 50 were important and the 750 didn’t count. This explains, to no small extent, how he managed to produce the illusion of “science”, like spinning straw out of imitation gold.

So, casting his net into the schools, he is likely to catch more fish than giving an intro lecture on Thursday evening and hoping for a windfall on Saturday morning.

About TM, despite the manipulated “studies have shown”, we can only say with some degree of certainty: results vary. Today, on the CNN web page, there was this reference: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/12/our-take-your-relationship-style-determines-how-you-feel-toward-god/?hpt=C2

I suspect that Mahesh was aware of this. There are simply some who feel a need for a co-dependent relationship with something both “other” and “transcendent”, although I doubt most folks actually can get their head around “transcendent” as a concept. Nonetheless there will always be those who will seek that which they suppose to be greater than they, other and parental. This is obviously the basis of what we call “religion” and we can see that it has remained a constant (as well as a thorn) through human history.

TM has some remarkable or at least interesting, but usually, short-term effects, at least experientially. For perhaps the reason referred to in the above URL, there are those who interpret those short-term effects/experiences as something other than what they are, mistaking, as the old Brahmanical adage goes, the rope for a snake. (Sadly, when we were in Rishikesh, no one saw the funny when I ran through the ashram yelling “rope”.)

The degeneration of Mahesh’s world empire, so far now from what it was preparing to be in the 70s and even early 80s, probably speaks volumes for both the short-term thrill of TM and Mahesh’s prospects of being other than a footnote in some obscure history text. But it also appears to highlight the desperation of the TMO to stay alive: going after kids, marketing questionable cures (http://www.mumpress.com/health-maharishi-vedic-approach-to-health/s5.html - and - http://www.mapi.com/). To his credit, sort of, Mahesh was a great salesman. Could anyone else have convinced people to board up their south-facing doors and rip holes for new doors in their east-facing walls? Could anyone other than Mahesh have gotten rich people to pay him a million dollars to wear silly hats? It’s a really long list of “accomplishments” or rather “making fools of fools”. (And, yes, I was, for about 10 years, one of those fools.)

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Hi, Jean-Pierre - I liked this and sent it to my friend in South Africa to see if he could post it for you, but no luck. I don’t think it is a matter of Christian bias, but maybe it is too long for one piece? Taking wild guesses here. Perhaps you could try posting it in two or three bits as Part one, Part two ... .

Like Deepcrock Chopra, Shankar was a disciple of Mahesh. I wonder if the two of them were simply involved with Mahesh to find out his “secrets” — both split, taking a lot of Maheshism with them and then revamping it in their own style. Mahesh called SSRI’s teching sugar-coated poison. But Mahesh was never one to miss an opportunity to diss the competition to make himself look good.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Guru wars! It’s still all about the money. If you look at Joyce Collin-Smith’s Call No Man Master you can read about the point at which Mahesh changed from teaching TM to teaching TM for money, from a donation basket to a fee. I suppose we have to admire him for having his priorities up-front. I understand that one can spend a lot to get the full package from SSRI, too.

In the end, getting the full package from either means just what exactly? Presumable, Guru Bev got the whole package. Is this our role model? Is Hagelin or King Tony? Are any of the “rajas”?

According to Wiki: “Raja (also spelled rajah, from Sanskrit rājan-, nominative rājā, also written raj in many modern languages) is an Indian term for a monarch, or princely ruler of the Kshatriya varna.” Mahesh was a Kshatriya. I wonder what can be seen in that.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Thanks to both of you for trying, Sudarsha. :-) Perhaps you're right about the length of my comment. Luckily you guys are doing a good job on that site to get alternative perspectives across and you have much more specific knowledge about TM than me, so I'm not too annoyed about the loss (or deletion) of my perspective.

Unfortunately, in South Africa public awareness and analysis of "cult"-like phenomena are still mostly non-existent.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

I can't vouch for the facts, but I think Ravi Shankar was in his early/mid-twenties when MMY excommunicated him for not following orders. The story goes that MMY asked him to set up a school for young pundit boys. The boys' parents set a condition that the boys not be taken far away from home. So RS (backed up by his father) didn't move the school to the distant site MMY desired. Then MMY kicked him out. Apparently Shankar was devastated, tried to phone MMY repeatedly, who refused to speak to him.

Well, obviously RS recovered well enough from this rejection by Mahesh to start competing - using some of the methods he learned from the latter.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

Typical Mahesh, do as I say, or you are dead to me. Another, far, far less known “escapee” from Mahesh’s clutches is Swami Shyam! He’s even a Shrivastava, but maybe from some other branch of the family.

Many years ago there was a huge story about Swami Shyam who had been caught having sex with his female devotees, one of whom happened to be the sister of the then Prime Minister of Canada, or perhaps it was just after Mr. Mullroney had ceased to be PM. Still, funny way to get publicity. Swami Shyam had toured with Mahesh for some years (using what name, I have no idea). Who knows why he went into business for himself!

There are many other drop outs, former TM-teachers and such, who have gone into business for themselves. I seriously doubt they could do a worse job than Mahesh, but it’s very hard to know what these splinter groups are up to.

John M. Knapp, LMSW said...

At least he learned well from the Master. Perhaps the start of another 'Holy Tradition'.


John M. Knapp, LMSW said...


I don't know. I've had enough of "holy traditions" and tend to look for the holes rather than the holy. Mahesh, I feel, was wholly bent on ripping us off for not giving him everything we had and thereby making him work hard to get it. I guess I know more about un-holy than most other things.

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