Deborah1900 would like to bring up a topic for discussion:
In your view, why do you think things have degenerated socially since the 1960s? There seemed to be so much promise, but although there are now more rights for formerly marginalised or disenfranchised groups—women, blacks, children, gays—in some ways we have entered a new Dark Ages.
Great question! Keep 'em coming. In fact, readers here who would like to start a topic or post an article can just reach me at jmknapp53@gmail.com.
See y'all in the comments below.
J.
15 comments:
What went wrong? I think this is a highly complex question involving so many social, political and interpersonal factors that sociologists and anthropologists in the future, way, way in the future are likely to continue to scratch their heads.
Surely one of the ingredients that soured the mix is the failure of humans to get along for extended periods of time. We are social animals on the one hand and territorial on the other. It's a mix that only a disaster could understand.
What went wrong in the TM scheme of things? Mahesh's grandiose self-image and off the charts self-affirmation simply did not pan out. TM simply did not do what he imagined it would.
An author who not only presumes that the first book s/he has written is the greatest ever written and will be at the top of the Best Sellers list for a long time would almost instantly be seen as delusional. How Mahesh got away with doing exactly the same thing is down to his cunning charm, his deceitful projection of goodness and purity and, basically, telling people what they wanted to hear.
The TMO gives itself a lot of credit for the betterification of the whole world whilst, indeed, it could just as easily be seen as the spanner pitched into the works. There is absolutely no proof either way, unless you see John's friend with the snapping fingers as exact science.
I haven't lived in the US since the early 70s, and the emergence of the right wing, including the right wing churches, is one of the most confusing things to me. Millions of people plunged into essentially running their lives based on a collection of mystical beliefs. Books being banned in schools. I recall GWB saying on tv, 'God told me to get Saddam, and I got him. God told me to get Osama Bin Laden, and I will get him' (paraphrased, but close). This would have been unthinkable in the late 60s. Is it just due to contracting economic forces?
I'm not sure what the term "Dark Ages" means in the context of our current society. Perhaps Deborah1900 could clarify what lies behind this claim.
That said, I agree with Sudarsha that the TM contribution to society -past, present, or future - doesn't amount to much other than adding words to our lexicon. There was a time when I vehemently felt otherwise.
However enlightened or ignorant we think ourselves to be in the present, the perspective that comes with the passage of time is the true objective measure of societal enlightenment (no pun intended). In other words, I believe it is up to future generations to definitively judge the state of society in the year 2010. We are simply too close to the matter to be objective.
I'm not sure what the term "Dark Ages" means in the context of our current society. Perhaps Deborah1900 could clarify what lies behind this claim.
That said, I agree with Sudarsha that the TM contribution to society -past, present, or future - doesn't amount to much other than adding words to our lexicon. There was a time when I vehemently felt otherwise.
However enlightened or ignorant we think ourselves to be in the present, the perspective that comes with the passage of time is the true objective measure of societal enlightenment (no pun intended). In other words, I believe it is up to future generations to definitively judge the state of society in the year 2010. We are simply too close to the matter to be objective.
I think Erich Fromm once said that man wants to be free, but he cannot stand too much freedom. As I remember the late '60s, it was a time when a lot of the barriers that had previously served to suppress society broke free, in the form of such things as the mass movement to end the war in Vietnam, the sexual revolution, the gay-rights movement, and interest in things that had been previously considered foreign to our western civilization, such as TM, EST, etc. I think this freedom proved to be too much for most people (ex, the riots at the Democratic convention helping to elect Richard Nixon), and this resulted in a right-wing backlash that continues to this very day. I don't think TM played that much of a role in this, since it was mostly personal not political. I think it could have played a larger role if it had not gotten sidetracked into such things as the 'Sidhis' and 'Invincible America', and had stayed more with such things as the basic teaching of meditation, but that is something we'll never know for sure.
Nicely said, Morris
I think we have to give Mahesh some credit: he pulled his bokers fantasy out of the cockup fiasco it was by making it an appealing cockup fiasco to a select few. AND, he managed to do it without the international shame someone like Osho achieved in America.
Not bad for a very intelligent, cunning, charming and otherwise dubious little git from India.
To respond to Feynman's question, I think you might have had to have been there (the 60s) to realise what is now missing.
Where to begin:
What I said earlier, the rise to prominence of the right wing, including fundamentalist churches, with all their prohibitions and forms of social control, including banning certain books in schools, attacks on abortion clinics and abortion doctors, etc.
The manifest greed in the 80s, with its inevitable meltdown in the '87 stock market crash.
The diabolical machinations of the banks in the 00's, leaing to the most serious financial meltdown since 1929.
On a social and personal level, what I perceive is a real lack of trust and consequent selfishness of individuals and groups. I will never forget the absolute joy of being in Northern California in the late 60s, where the barriers between people seemed very easy to penetrate. The sense of happiness in the air. Everyone hitch-hiked! TM was most certainly an artefact of those times; I doubt seriously whether it could ever get off the ground now. And I recall MMY's utter contempt of hippies, even when someone pulled him up on it, telling him that his entire audience had that backround! I live in a beautiful place now (Provence), where the richness of the earth and the beauty of nature surrounds me. But the wariness and lack of warmth from people, the horrible aggressive bad manners of drivers, makes a real contrast.
As I said, there have been some real gains, some promises fulfilled...formerly marginalised groups live lives they never could back then, as a result of social changes. And I am very glad to see non-smokers' right being recognised!
But I never dreamed, 40 years on, that we would be dealing with financial precariousness, serious environmental damage, constant worry about terrorism, horrid new diseases like AIDS, climate change that threatens everything, interminable wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and overpopulation.
I've lived in the US for almost 60 years and the emergence of the Liberal Left with their Social Re-engineering agenda is THE most confusing thing to me.
Liberals do not embrace the concept of right & wrong.
To them, this is an arbitrary universe where anything goes. Facts are an "inconvenient truth".
Achievers are demonized and hatred is acceptable aned fashionable when expressed by "select groups".
Yes, this Country has real problems but IMO it has nothing to do with the Conservative Right.
"As I said, there have been some real gains, some promises fulfilled...formerly marginalised groups live lives they never could back then, as a result of social changes. And I am very glad to see non-smokers' rights being recognised!"
EVERYONE has rights.
This is the age of _Tyranny of the Minorities_ where it is not Justice for All but Justice for Some.
We do have real problems threatening our way of life but our leaders are so politicized that facts are distorted and groups are pitted against groups.
The financial collapse?
I doubt that anyone here has read about the agenda of Fanny May and Freddy Mack and their push to make sure
EVERYONE owns a home regardless of whether they could afford it. This is a symptom of the Social Engineering and Spread-the-Wealth disease spread by liberals.
My mantra: Personal Responsibility.
I recall there ws no grafitti anywhere except gang-populated areas, until the late 60s.
Liberals do "embrace the concept of right & wrong," --- theirs just may not agree with yours. There hasn't been an "emergence of the Liberal Left" in the past 60 years -- it has been around a lot longer than that. The ultra-conservative and fundamentalist coalition with its emphasis on government de-regulation is what has emerged. But this is probably off-topic. I was always surprised at how ugly the expressions of "traditional values" were coming from Mahesh, including his embracing of the caste system, racism, social darwinism and all the Hindu religious hogwash that underlies the TM worldview.
In view of our varied but similar experiences with the TMO, I would certainly uphold the importance of personal responsibillty as an antidote to the mass psychology and cult behavior of those in the movement. When I "snapped," the main thing I took away with me from the experience of being in the movement is that it is a mistake to turn over responsibility for one's life to someone else, no matter how enlightened they may seem.
You make a lot of sense, revoluce. Perhaps, at least for those of us who carry some burden of guilt or other pain from out TM involvement, it might be a good idea to talk about forgiveness, that is, giving back, giving away those useless feelings that plague our present from the distance of our past.
Once those feelings of guile and pain are given back, we are much freer, as you indicate, to see our experiences as useful or just part of the fabric of our lives, not as something that continues to drag us down.
That's what I think, anyway. Anyone else? Should we start a thread on Forgiveness????
Forgiveness?
Why should we (me) forgive someone else for OUR bad choices?
Just forget. Expecting some sort of internal change because WE see that those perceived as causing us pain were also confused, ignorant or plain evil is a waste of time IMO.
Let it go - move on.
We cannot change the past but we can recognize our
limitations and ignorance and do something about it - learn.
Many people involved in New Age, Eastern and Spiritual Movements are simply confused, often misinformed and
frequently arrogant about their special status and so-called inner knowledge.
Gauging from all the news feeds regarding these groups and leaders, they ain't got squat. Just your plain run of the mill foolishness dressed up in fancy concepts and words. They are also lost in the dark but have new tunes to whistle to give the impression that everything is OK.
I don't forgive myself for begin stupid.
I can only do something about it and be diligent in not repeating past mistakes.
Wouldn't it be great if things did take a wide, sweeping turn for the better, and harmony prevailed in the world? Of course... I still feel that way. And it would then be great if, in some way, TM and the TM movement had had something to do with that turn. Yet - due to my own private disappointments with the TMO and to my personal experience doing TM having turned acrid - I do not recommend TM to people anymore.
There seemed to be little in the TM movement that truly utilized personal initiative, wisdom, and creativity of the TM personnel. I heard a story, long ago, about the Vancouver (Canada) TM center. Do you remember how MMY's book Science of Being extolled TM as the way to curb crime, solve social problems, and rehabilitate those confused and weak people who became perpetrators of crime? Well, one kind, energetic, and intelligent middle-aged woman ( TM initiator) in Vancouver took the initiative to set up a program at one of the Western-Canadian prisons, to teach TM to those prisoners who wished to learn. Other teachers at the same center felt the project was questionable, risky. She responded that MMY wanted to rehabilitate prisoners, and to solve the crime problem. The other teachers still advised the woman to stop. Then they told her to end the project! Finally, they had the locks on the TM-center door changed, and did not give her a key!
I was involved in an on-line TM-related open discussion group 10 years ago. A TM teacher from Los Angeles claimed that the biggest problem with the TMO was that it had ceased to be interested in, or supportive of, the many local centers that had been opened since the early 1960s across the U.S.
In any case, personally I found that when my own TM mediation life was running into "issues", no one at the local TM center could give me truly tailor-made advice. Sure, they could give me "a checking'. And they could tell me to meditate for 15-20 minutes twice each day. But that was pretty much it. And my problems - though they were eventually solved - were not helped by any TM program, advice, food supplement, or anything like that!
Then too, why make so many public pronouncements and claims that apparently you cannot back up through evidence or public demonstration?
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