Transcendental Meditation Marketer$ are ballyhooing the latest "research" on the neurological effects of TM: "A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice."
Try this Google search, and you will find hundreds of sites uncritically reporting a press release put out by the Maharishi University of Management on the "study."
It appears the research was funded by MUM itself.
But check out the authors: Fred Travis, David A. F. Haaga, John Hagelin, Melissa Tanner, Alaric Arenander, Sanford Nidich, Carolyn Gaylord-King, Sarina Grosswald, Maxwell Rainforth, and Robert H. Schneider.
- Lead author Travis (pictured above) is a MUM professor and head of Vedic Science.
- Haaga (American University) may be legit, although he's been prominently displayed in other TM studies recently.
- Schneider is a MUM professor of physiology and health.
- Melissa Tanner is Haaga's graduate student.
- Alaric Arenander goes way back in the movement to Charlie Lutes days and sure looks like a quack.
- Sanford Nidich is a MUM professor of physiology and health and education.
- Carolyn Gaylord-King is on the board of trustees of MUM and a professor of health and education to boot.
- Sarina Grosswald is Executive Director Office of ADHD and Learning Differences at David Lynch Foundation and Director at Arlington - DC Transcendental Meditation Center, the closest TM center to Haaga.
- Maxwell Rainforth is an assistant professor of physiology and health and statistics at MUM.
- Of course, Hagelin needs no introduction—although what this erstwhile quantum physicist knows about biomedical research is beyond me.
The full study itself is for sale, but costs $34. I'm not sure it's worth the cost to actually purchase.
45 comments:
Above, Gina mentioned some common adverse effects of long-term TM programs and/or rounding. She suggested:
<span>"How about studying measures of life functionality from prolonged rounding, say after several months or more of rounding, or years on the 'Creating Coherence Program' (CCP)?
- the ability to hold a job (not just live off the family trust fund)
- the ability to maintain long term intimate relationships (Most TM echelon are unmarried. If they have children, the majority of those children use extensive drugs and alcohol to self-medicate as teens, then leave TM)
- the capacity for independent decision making (life style, personal goals, manner of dress, etc)
- the capacity for rational discourse"</span>
<span>I certainly did not do as much rounding as many people who became deeply involved with the TMO did, and my life was almost nothing like that lived by many in centers like Fairfield. I did practice TM twice daily for many years, and attended some West-Coast-Canada residence courses where we did some rounding. But I believe Gina's little list (and I'm certain, because she uses "e.g.", that she could have expanded that list) is representative of some of the effects I noticed among some "serious TMers".</span>
What I noticed in myself as adverse results of TM practice might also be items investigatable, by way of research into the common results of TM practice amongst groups of TMers: Periods of inability to concentrate well (while not meditating - i.e., in "everyday life situations"). Tendency to dissociate when faced with challenging emotional circumstances. Becoming inefficient or slow at everydays tasks. Possible lowering of I.Q. as measured in a standard test. Spacing-out while driving a vehicle (might be investigated via driving records - police records, insurance records).
I'll attest to having experienced these sorts of things to a greater or lesser degree (it varied) over a period of years. I don't say they are permanent results. For me, they began to slowly diminish as soon as I stopped doing 2x20 TM, and even more quickly when I totally quit doing TM. Further, once I went through a particular therapeutic process, the remaining mental fogginess disappeared and I became happier, more confident, more able, and more energetic.
Dear Paul
This is a good question.
First, I trust what the person says. After I record EEG, I ask the person to describe this meditation relative to their dialy practice. The meditation in the lab is usually as deep as their daily meditation. I also go over the EEG record with the person so they can see how they brain waves change from eyes open to eyes closed to TM. In this conversation, any issues should come out.
Trust is the basis of any relationship--even in science.
All the best
Fred
Abstract easily available on PubMed;
Conscious Cogn. 2010 Feb 16. [Epub ahead of print]
Focused attention, open monitoring and automatic self-transcending: Categories to organize meditations from Vedic, Buddhist and Chinese traditions.
Travis F, Shear J.
Center for the Brain, Consciousness, and Cognition, Maharishi University of Management, 1000 North 4th Street, Fairfield, IA 52557, United States; Maharishi University of Management Research Institute, Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52557, United States.
This paper proposes a third meditation-category-automatic self-transcending- to extend the dichotomy of focused attention and open monitoring proposed by Lutz. Automaticself-transcending includes techniques designed to transcend their own activity. This contrasts with focused attention, which keeps attention focused on an object; and open monitoring, which keeps attention involved in the monitoring process. Each category was assigned EEG bands, based on reported brain patterns during mental tasks, and meditations were categorized based on their reported EEG. Focused attention, characterized by beta/gamma activity, included meditations from Tibetan Buddhist, Buddhist, and Chinese traditions. Open monitoring, characterized by theta activity, included meditations from Buddhist, Chinese, and Vedic traditions. Automaticself-transcending, characterized by alpha1 activity, included meditations from Vedic and Chinese traditions. Between categories, the included meditations differed in focus, subject/object relation, and procedures. These findings shed light on the common mistake of averaging meditations together to determine mechanisms or clinical effects. Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
PMID: 20167507 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
EEG is a hell of a foggy land in the context of medical research......and You know it Fred. So far I doubt every word in this abstract until I have read the whole paper. Its belittleling ancient Buddhist traditions and meditation...Dalai Lama, seem to me to have pretty good results from his meditations. But on the positive site I notice that finally we might have an explanation to the difference between focus and spaceout...trancesimilar sleepstates?
Fred,
Thank you for the integrity to participate in discussion here!
Questions:
If Maharishi is/ was the expert on his branded Transcendental Meditation, why do you ask meditator's their subjective experiences?
Maharishi himself taught that we should not analyze our subjective meditative experience (although everyone compared "experiences" anyway)
Also, current MUM students emailed us that this website is banned from the MUM Internet server. Why is that?
Can studies be designed to measure endorphin production during meditation?
TM endorphins could meaurably explain various "bliss" experiences, as well as the increased pain threshold found in long term TMers, TM "visions"/ psychosis, and the addictive nature of TM and TMSP found by those who struggled to wean themselves from disocciative high / "witnessing" to integrate into
society.
Your responses are greatly appreciated, Fred.
Thank you,
g :)
Tanemon mentioned other common effects seen in long term meditators:
<span>Periods of inability to concentrate well (while not meditating - i.e., in "everyday life situations"). Tendency to dissociate when faced with challenging emotional circumstances. Becoming inefficient or slow at everydays tasks.</span>
Decades later, I still dissociate when faced with challenging emotional situations. I can return and address the situation the following day.
I don't know if this tendency comes from TMeditating practice, per se, or also from the first decades of my life under TM cult pressure, judgements, inadequacies (typical cult psycho-emotional "abuse") which created a deeply embedded "KMS" - "Keep Mouth Shut" - response to emotional challenges. Fortunately I am able to hold down a demanding job and raised great kids regardless.
I also failed to mention.. about the endorphin/addiction concern with TM.. in my response to Fred up above in this thread -- endorphin measures could also possibly contribute to understanding the many many TM casualties who are unable to hold down jobs and live now as psychologically disabled on Social Security benefits, for inability to focus. Others are labeled as PTSD after cult life. Then there are the suicides.
And who would write grants for such studies? And who could possibly have access to a cross section of TMers and former TMers for a truly balanced view?
Studying ONLY those in Fairfield is not a balanced sample, since many left FF but are still affected. Others spent little time in FF, but were in TM communities large and small elsewhere. What about Debbie Henning in a mental institution and her late husband, Doug Henning, dead from following Maharishi's advice and therapies?
Since Maharishi dictated to only study positive measures of TM, am sure these considerations would never be studied by MUM researchers.
Even the"Maharishi Effect" retrospective studies only included measurable social indicators which put TM in a positive light; indicators that did not give the desired results were simply dropped from reports.
g :)
Doug asks: "So why didn't Fred answer him?"
TM teachers are trained to dodge questions and not answer them. They only answer what they want to answer. That's Maharishi's way. The hope is that the questioner will forget the original question - not likely to happen with this crowd!
If we continue, and Fred does inward digging to provide answers, Fred may feel some tinges of anxiety. He will term the anxiety "unstressing," return to the domes to Program to settle himself in trance before returning to the conversation.
On the other hand, honest discourse has the risk of exit counseling him. Not likely to succeed after his lifetime of TM-MMY devotion.
From my memory, Fred is one of those smart, well-intentioned TMers that Bjarne mentioned above. He is a True Believer and TM-based brain research is Fred's life.
g :)
Fred,
I think it shows courage and integrity for you to take part in discussions on this site-thanks, much appreciated !
John Nickson.
Ruth, you make an important point (as always).
However, Fred's position as a public spokesperson, recruiter, scientist and faculty of TM imply that he is an expert on "all things TM." It's natural that everyone here wants to ask him / confront him with specifics about research and MUM functioning.
We know that Bevan and the Rajas are really the folks to discuss these concerns with. Fred lacks their level of authority in the Movement as he ultimately reports to Bevan and the echelon in Holland.
g :)
As I learned from MMY....if I am not getting answers from Fred I will call head of department Dr Raja Ram
Fred, thank you for your candour. I am shocked that at the core of these lab tests on TM meditation there is an absence of objective scientific scrutiny and total reliance on such a subjective quality as 'trust'. I believe the world has been lulled into believing the results of such tests, trusting that scientists use methods far more stringent than taking the participants word for what they are practising. I suspect that if Time Magazine or some such prestigious magazine ran an article on TM science, with our exchange quoted, it would easily persuade readers of the un-scientific nature of these experiments.
I hope you find a way of producing experiments on TM practise based on stronger proof. Good luck.
Paul
<span>
<p><span></span>
</p><p><span>Dr. Travis,</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>I've begun reading the papers you kindly sent me. I appreciate your generosity of spirit and willingness to give of your time.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>I wish I were more confident of my ability to understand your research, but what little I learned about statistics in graduate school has faded with time.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>Nonetheless, I'd like to ask questions about the first paper I've worked through: "Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states." You are the lead author.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>The paper discusses observed EEG coherence in 51 individuals self-reporting transcendence along with waking and sleeping. You specifically identify this as "enlightenment" in your conclusion.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>I fear I've misunderstood, but the heart of the reasoning you present seems circular—or more properly "begging the question." It appears the proposition you are attempting to prove is assumed in your premise.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>Unless I'm mistaken, some TMers came to you claiming they are enlightened and attributed it to their TM practice. You and your fellow researchers hooked them up to an EEG and found high-amplitude alpha waves and brainwave coherence. You then seem to say that proves they are enlightened.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>It seems as if the research has "its outputs feeding back into its inputs." Circular reasoning.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>You do not provide any criteria to judge the truth or falsity of their claims. Given the high prestige attributed to individuals who report such experiences in TM culture, it seems possible they could have a high motivation to mistakenly believe this about themselves—or to outright lie.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>(A side note, when I participated in research on TM in the 70s, the local center and researchers picked individuals they considered to be "strong, clear" meditators. In other words, they chose subjects they believed would yield the results they wanted.)</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>Robin Carlsen made such claims of enlightenment, as did Andy Rhymer—both of whom are now disgraced within the TM community. One with a history of child molestation, I believe.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>It is reported the Maharishi proclaimed both Carlsen and Rhymer "enlightened." Are we to accept some claims of enlightenment, but not others? If a child molester exhibits EEG coherence, is he enlightened?</span>
</p><p><span>If so, what is the actual benefit of enlightenment? Or EEG [...]
Gina, I guess I'm talking about the effects noticed in TM "bliss ninnies" (as some TM teachers from sothwestern British Columbia, Canada, used to term them). These were people who for a while were smilingly "blissed out" but - in many cases - found that this state led to a functional ineptitude. Then they gradually sank into frustration & sadness, since the feedback to them from the world (the job/career world, the social world) was negative.
Okay, Gina, you lived in FF. I realize that what I'm asking for here would only be casual observation or "anecdotal information," but what proportion of the FF TMer popultion would you say seemed to have slid into this unfortunate state of living? Would you think 20%, or a third, or...??
(cont.)
<p><span>The correlation you report doesn't seem to prove causality. We can't know if these individuals had high coherence from birth. Or if it arose due to another cause, such as a strict vegetarian diet, or other confounding factors.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>Isn't this a case where researchers have elegantly measured and analyzed data—then drawn conclusions based on flawed premises? Namely, 1) that enlightenment exists, 2) that we can trust an individual's report of enlightenment, and 3) that any differences we measure in them from other populations must be proof of their claims? </span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>How could we then justify your conclusion that "[t]his line of research could dramatically impact our understanding of the possible range of human development"?</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>We certainly can't prove any of these measured differences result from TM.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>I have another question.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>The occurrence of alpha rhythms in later stages of sleep has been correlated with sleep disorders..This is a discussion of "alpha-wave intrusion" in layman's terms.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>Could you explain how transcendence during stage IV sleep differs from this sleep disorder?</span>
</p><p>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>I want to give you kudos, Dr. Travis, for your patience in explaining your work to a skeptical crowd—only a few of whom have scientific training. I certainly don't.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>If more TM researchers and representatives were willing to discuss skeptical questions with critics, we might put to rest many doubts dogging the TM Org for decades.</span>
</p><p>
</p><p><span>J.</span>
</p>
Internal subjective practices are like this. If one is doing the Buddhist style Awareness type of stuff how do you know they are not thinking of cheeseburgers the whole time? Or in 8th path style yoga, instead of kriya, one could be thinking of the date last night. I suspect that is one reason that subjective approaches to truth are not "valid" scienctific pursuits. We don't need to revisit discussions of how many angels can dance on a pin.
When purusing the comments keep in mind several different studies have been mentioned. The one I read is the one that is the original topic of the blog post and which Travis suggested we read before critiquing.
John.
1. The paper does not say that TM is a causative factor. Rather it is a naturalistic observation of brain patterns that differentiate indivdiuals reporting the state of enlightenment from short term meditators, who have experienced pure consciousness during TM but not in activity, and non-TM.. A multi-discriminant analysis choose the variables that differentiated groups. So it is not circular. Rather, it was research to identify a number of physiological measures that might mark growth of enlightenment. Later research, then looked over 1 year of TM practice to see if this EEG pattern emerged over time with TM. That paper began to ask if Tm was a causative factor.
2. IN terms of alpha-delta sleep. That is discussed in another paper published in Sleep. Alpha-delta sleep is seen in fibromyalgia--put these individuals do not sleep deeply--they do not show stage 3 and 4. In the inidividuals reporting enlightenment, they had as much delta sleep as any other person, and those individuals did not report any physiological problems.
Hope this answers your questions.
Fred
Fred and John- EEG and brains are rubbish....here comes the truth.... 8-)
http://www.youtube.com/v/VbEfentoIJs&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="170" height="140
Oh Bjarne, well found.
Dear Fred, I remember your sympatatic face, you didn't change a lot.
But about scientific researches, I have my doubts.
I joined one at the begining of meditating, and was asked to come back for a second one to see how intelligence raised.
Only the positive meditator were invited. In total 4 including me and my husband.
this specific pshych. research was used on a big scale! (4 people!)
I was very positive about my experiences with TM, I didn't stop because of bad experiences. But, as a teacher I saw so many people falling down the rabbit hole!
People who were very dear to me, changed from normal persons into.......????
And I couldn't agree with all the things Maharishi wanted from us to do, to say to meditators etc.who were in really big problems because of the meditation. And checkingnotes is not enough, to help them.
The scientific research branche is wide.
As long as you don't take all the thinks matter to it, into credit, you never get a objective result from it.
See, the scientific research on global warming.
In Tilburg, Holland they did the research which was the ground of all the later research, and the ground of the outcome was that global warming was a great danger to the planet.
Now, they found out, that they did forget a very important thing to take into account.
So... scientific research is mostly very subjective. This scientific research says this, the other says that.
I don't want to offend you or something, but I just wanted to say this to you.
greetings Alex
ps. Fred, even the preconceived opinion of the researcher has a big impact on the outcoming of that specific research!
:) Paul, if you give a demographic form to a person, do you ask to see their phot ID to check their name? birth certificate to check their birthday? or take a blood sample to extract the DNA and check if the have XX or XY chromosomes? Of course not. All resaerchers trust the people who come into your study--not just TM resaerchers.
If a person says the answer to the math problem they did is "42" do you think they really got "34" and are just lying? Of course not.
All physiological research on subjective experience begins with asking the subject. If you ask people to create a positive mood, and then you ask them to rate how well they did it, do you accept their answer and group the data by the answer? Yes. All researchers start here. You can look at Davidson's work on emotions at Univ of Wisconsin at Madison.
With more resaerch you may be able to identify physiological patterns of the subjective state, and if those patterns are seen whenever the person has the emotion, and those patterns are never seen at anyother time, then you have a physioogical marker of the subjectie experience....but it starts with the subjective experience.
One caveat, on paper and pencil tests, there are questions to see if the person is faking good--called subject reacitivty. So, yes this is an issue. But it is the starting point of science.
Its not so at all in medical research, .......a lot of no trust investigation going on in double blind studies of drug-trials. You cant have such a study published in a high impact journals without no trust cheks. Cheking by bloodsamples the drug concentration in the blod to check compliance. Pauls point is a good one indeed Fred !
Hi Gina
I wanted to expand my response to your points.
First about recruiting people for a study:
All researchers will exclude people from a study. If you are looking at normal functioning you would exclude those with previous psychiatric history, neurologic disorders, or drug history. If you are doing a clinical study, you would exclude healthy people J
(This was brought to my mind today in communicating with a researcher who practices Mindfulness Meditation who is comparing EEG between four different meditations, including TM.)
Second, in your points there is a assumed causality that long rounding may be harmful.
Let’s look at the big picture. NIH Mental Health estimates 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml). Since 25% of the general population has a diagnosable mental disorder, some of them will be coming to TM with that disorder. It would not be that TM caused the disorder; they came with that.
An epidemiology study in Sweden addressed this directly. Since it is socialized medicine they had records of all Swedes who were in psychiatric hospitals. The percent of people in psychiatric hospitals who practice TM was 100 smaller than the percentage of people in practicing TM in the population. This suggests TM does not cause psychiatric problems.
Research is now being done to test effects of TM practice on ADHD (two studies), bipolar disorder and PTSD (in progress now.) The research is being done and will come out.
Bottom line, is to date, there is no systematic research that indicates that long rounding, under proper supervision, causes permanent mental problems.
All the best
Fred
Fred, I am not blaming you for the lack of technology in place to enable scientists to 'see' whether someone is meditating or not, but I don't believe you can 'prove' TM until the technology exists. But in the meantime you could try approaching the target from a different direction. Try testing people who claim to experience some of the symptoms of 'enlightenment'' and trying to work out how these symptoms are occuring (without asking the subjects what they are doing, in the first instance). Of course this would not be a specifically TM-orientated experiment so it would have little or no value to those trying to 'sell' TM. However, it would be very, very useful for the scientific understanding of meditation & its effects, which is something quite different I suspect.
Sorry Fred...Your conclusions are not correct from a strict epidemiological point of view. You are comparing two completely different populations, not in any way whatsoever matched for age, sex, geographical living, work, marriage, number of children, drug and alcohol habbits, social backgrond such as religious views and social standing. This is the most serious fault in your conclusion. Secondly there could be a lot of reasons why in patients at psychiatric hospitals have a history of TM to a lesser degree compared to TMers admitted to psychiatric hospitals. Seriously, a few reasons: 1) they committed suicide 2) due to religious, philosofic or other beliefs, they refused treatment at a psychiatric institiution...just to mension a few bias. But Yes! we do have high standard in our epidemiological research in Sweden due to our healthcare system.
I agree with Bjarne's comment. The issue is that there is a lack of research focusing specifically on potential problems with rounding. We have some anecdotal information. This information should be sufficient to at least see that it might be an issue and spend some time, money and effort on teasing out that issue with research to see if there is any correlation between rounding and exacerbation or creation of mental health issues. This issue is separate and apart from whether simple TM (or any relaxation technique) is useful in helping with issues like ADHD or PTSD.
Fred is aware of this. In the study that was discussed in the original blog post certain controls were used to help minimize researcher expectation by making the researchers blind to who was in what group when reading the EEG results.
as long as they dont know what to take into account with a certain research project, the outcome is not OK, not objective and so NOT thrue.
experience is more valid, it is part of ones live
and as long as they just take "so called possitive, stable, healthy" people for research, it stinks!
Hello Fred:
Thank you for your kind response to my questions.
I appreciate your explanation of keeping the TM studies to those who would be, as you described "normally functioning."
For your studies, who defines "normally functioning." I know of some TMers who were in studies but unable to hold jobs, they were living on welfare checks. Is that "normally functioning."?
Regarding possible ill effects from rounding, why have there not been studies done on the effects of rounding? Everyone on rouding cours jokes about the "space cases" and "heavy unstressors"... those are insider terms for the obvious problems experienced by other course participants.
Yet, without studies on the effects of rounding, every MUM student spends one out of three months on a rounding program.
BTW, Maharishi once guaranteed Cosmic Consciousness to all MIU graduates, because they would've spent a full year rounding by the time they received their Bachelor's degree. Has Cosmic Consciousness been scientifically defined? ... but I digress...
You wrote : "Let’s look at the big picture. NIH Mental Health estimates 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml). Since 25% of the general population has a diagnosable mental disorder, some of them will be coming to TM with that disorder. It would not be that TM caused the disorder; they came with that."
If that is the case, then the 25% of TMers who have mental disorders should access appropriate mental help without stigma. Yet, Maharishi taught that one should not seek psychological therapy. Maharishi said that therapy "Only spreading the mud." TM was the "best solution to transcend beyond the problem." With transending, the problems were promised to dissolve.
Maharishi, and all TM teachers, teach that TM is the solution to everything. Meditate, attend a course, round, learn the siddhis to gain perfect health, immerse in the absolute, improve mental clarity, reduce blood pressure, bring more bliss, etc. etc.
Yet, those who devotedly practice TM and follow "the knowledge" will then abstain from seeking psychological help when they have anxiety or other problems. All problems are attributed it to "heavy unstressing." "Unstressing" is an unstudied and non-scientific term that is commonly understood amongst TMers to ambiguously refer to any uncomfortable sensation either physical, emotional, or psychological.
Those who really want help, will attend as many advanced TM courses as possible and avoid seeking appropriate therapy or counseling. If anyone claimed to have sought therapy on a course application, they would not be accepted from the course.
In this case, TM and TM programs DOES indirectly further (preexisting?) mental conditions by discouraging appropriate treatment in favor of increased amounts of time spent in trance state, yagyas for treatment, jyotish astrology, unstudied Ayur-Ved therapies and gemstones (all of which profit MVED, of course)
(continues on next comment)
(continued from above)
The Swedish study which you quote:
"The percent of people in psychiatric hospitals who practice TM was 100 smaller than the percentage of people in practicing TM in the population. This suggests TM does not cause psychiatric problems."
Your conclusion is not logical, as Bjarne referred to in his post above. This is typical TM pseudo-science rationale that does not hold up under scrutiny.
Of course the number of people diagnosed with psychiatric problems will be less in a population that avidly avoids such disgnosis and treatment! As Bjarne stated, the numbers in psychiatric hospitals do not include the suicides, nor those in prison.
Once again, devoute TMers will not seek psychiatric help, thus are unlikely to be diagnosed and find themselves in a mental institution and would not be included in such a count.
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement: "Bottom line, is to date, there is no systematic research that indicates that long rounding, under proper supervision, causes permanent mental problems."
There is also no systematic research to indicate that long rounding does NOT cause permanent mental problems.
How many long term meditators, who left the TMO and have long term problems have you studied? John Knapp, Rick Ross, Steven Hassan (well respected cult experts) and the International Cultic Studies Association have seen hundreds of TM related casulties. Some of us (myself included) have TM casualties in our personal lives.
For example, how many of those who've spent years on the Mother Divine Program or Purusha program would be able to integrate in a non-TM Movement social or work context? Most of those Purusha and Mother Divine course participants would not fit anyone's criteria of "normal functioning" and would thus be excluded from your studies. Yet, their lifestyle is seen as the epitome of TM devotion. Why is that?
Thank you for your kind consideration.
g :)
Agree Gina! Its worse, its pure unscientific fantacy - nothing to do with epidemiological research. Reasons I stated above. With such conclusions made in public You are soon out of scientific publishing business Fred.....peer reviewers are not that stupid
Fred,
Oh, and.. you stated that "there is no systematic research that indicates that long rounding, under proper supervision, causes permanent mental problems."
But are there studies that reveal temporary mental problems?
In an earlier comment, you stated that you'd also been concerned about such problems observed with rounding and that it needed to be studies. Now I cannot find that comment. Has it been deleted or perhaps I missed it?
If studies have revealed temporary problems for a small percentage of people while rounding, why should anyone willingly participate in a program that could put them at risk for temporary mental problems?
There should, actually to be ethical, there MUST be longtidunal studies on those who've had negative experiences rounding.
Until those so-called "heavy unstressors" with the tics, psychotic episodes, anxiety and anger bouts are documented and followed, the TM Movement should not be pushing rounding programs to heavily.
It is unwise and unethical to heartily promote a program that so powerfully causes alterations in personality, mood, life direction and "unstressing" until side effects and appopriate recovery therapies are documented.
g :)
Gina, yes strange how stuff has gone astray, I recall the comment you are referring to, the comment that has gone missing is:-
Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Hi Gina
I am also concerned about the issues you bring up about long rounding.
Thank you for bringing these to my attention again.
All the best
Fred
Monday, March 08, 2010, 2:46:28
if you want to save these old comments before they disappear, go to:-
http://js-kit.com/api/static/pop_comments?ref=http%3A%2F%2Ftmfree.blogspot.com%2F2010%2F03%2Fmore-doubtful-transcendental-meditation.html&path=%2F4009187032019915116#jsid-1268158862-236
Thanks Paul for keeping record of the references, a lot seem to have disappeared lately. Please rejuvenate the comments on old Sigmond, Jung and John
Gina! The medical journal "Psychiatry" has quite a high impactfactor. The following paper on meditation and depersonalization:
Psychiatry. 1990 May;53(2):158-68.
Depersonalization and meditation.
Castillo RJ.
Department of Anthropology, Harvard University.
From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization; 2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience; 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization; 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning; 5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment; 6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present.
PMID: 2191357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Publication Types, MeSH
....think the famous Mumbai Yogi Nisargadatta was quite honest when he claimed: "Its no childs play"
Interesting! Thanks, Bjarne and Paolo!
My now-grown daughter always had anxiety in response to TM, even as a child attending Maharishi's elementary school. Needless to say, she does not do TM now, and her younger brothers were never initiated.
Permanent depersonalization = Cosmic Consciousness?
.. always witnessing, not connecting to anything including to one's own identity.
Sad state.
Oh right, even Maharishi said that Cosmic Consciousness can feel empty.. but the next step, God Consciousness (ever the next carrot to lure one onward) would be full of beauty and joy as one experiences the "finest relative."
What mythology!
Thanks for a reference that documents pathology in a small sample, only 6, of meditators experiencing depersonalization.
g :)
I have to say that in general I am not against meditation per se as a valuable form of treatment of stress related disorders. In fact ist becoming mainstream. The initial studies by Keith Wallace with cardiologist Herbert Benson as supervisor were published in very high impact journals such as Lancet and science back in eraly seventies.
Herbert Bensons hypothesis on The relaxation response as the opposite to Hans Selyes stress response as late as 1997 in the science.1997 Dec;278(5344):1694-5 is a major step forward in the understanding of the mechanism in many meditation techniques. In 1997 Benson was since long an outcast in TMO because he is a scientist and not a TB in the moneymaking TMO. There is a need in healthcare of secular meditation techniques. High quality randomized controlled trials with larger subject groups, longer follow up periods and more experienced meditators are crucial in order to evaluate long-term effects AND side effects.
Fred What is Your opinion on the pioneer work of Dr Herbert Benson?
for info on Dr Benson visit:
http://www.relaxationresponse.org/
....awaiting answers from the MIU reaesrch institution Fairfield, as You know Fred, open, mature discussion is an essential part of research....
Dr. Benson's research in to meditation
began with the Transcendental Meditation
technique, as taught by Maharishi Mahesh
Yogi. But he is maintaining a neutral, objective
position, not aligning with any particular
meditation organization
How about the "bliss ninny" thing? What concerned me - more than bouts of anger or even temporary psychotic episodes - was the bliss ninny phenomenon. (This is due to the fact that, in my observation, psychotic episodes and bouts of heavy anger haven been rarer.)
What do I mean by "bliss ninny"? This was a term I encountered among western Canadian TM teachers, who would use it off-handedly when not in a public situation. It may have had wider currency. (And, by the way, I was never a TM teacher myself).
The "bliss ninny" is a smiling, satisfied TMer - however, he or she may not be competent at the customary, basic skills needed in modern Western (particularly American or Canadian) society. Bliss ninnies might not be good drivers, good at job skills, good at ordinary day-to-day conversation. Frequently, they can be a shade bumbling or clumsy. Also, they might not be good at dealing with challenging emotions involved in relationships and childrearing. They might not be aware of current events and issues that people in a modern democracy are supposed to be aware of. Charitable people see them as "dear souls" who are "in the clouds" or "in there own world".
Now is this an especially bad thing? Probably not, in he grand scheme of things. But what about the "200% of life"? What about "success in life" - which in the West does not mean simply the metaphysical side, but material competency and everyday comfort as well?
By the way, th really long rounding courses were not necessarily required in order to produce the condition of which I speak.
How about the "bliss ninny" thing? What concerned me - more than bouts of anger or even temporary psychotic episodes - was the bliss ninny phenomenon. (This is due to the fact that, in my observation, psychotic episodes and bouts of heavy anger haven been rarer.)
What do I mean by "bliss ninny"? This was a term I encountered among western Canadian TM teachers, who would use it off-handedly when not in a public situation. It may have had wider currency. (And, by the way, I was never a TM teacher myself).
The "bliss ninny" is a smiling, satisfied TMer - however, he or she may not be competent at the customary, basic skills needed in modern Western (particularly American or Canadian) society. Bliss ninnies might not be good drivers, good at job skills, good at ordinary day-to-day conversation. Frequently, they can be a shade bumbling or clumsy. Also, they might not be good at dealing with challenging emotions involved in relationships and childrearing. They might not be aware of current events and issues that people in a modern democracy are supposed to be aware of. Charitable people see them as "dear souls" who are "in the clouds" or "in there own world".
Now is this an especially bad thing? Probably not, in he grand scheme of things. But what about the "200% of life"? What about "success in life" - which in the West does not mean simply the metaphysical side, but material competency and everyday comfort as well?
By the way, th really long rounding courses were not necessarily required in order to produce the condition of which I speak.
How about the "bliss ninny" thing? What concerned me - more than bouts of anger or even temporary psychotic episodes - was the bliss ninny phenomenon. (This is due to the fact that, in my observation, psychotic episodes and bouts of heavy anger haven been rarer.)
What do I mean by "bliss ninny"? This was a term I encountered among western Canadian TM teachers, who would use it off-handedly when not in a public situation. It may have had wider currency. (And, by the way, I was never a TM teacher myself).
The "bliss ninny" is a smiling, satisfied TMer - however, he or she may not be competent at the customary, basic skills needed in modern Western (particularly American or Canadian) society. Bliss ninnies might not be good drivers, good at job skills, good at ordinary day-to-day conversation. Frequently, they can be a shade bumbling or clumsy. Also, they might not be good at dealing with challenging emotions involved in relationships and childrearing. They might not be aware of current events and issues that people in a modern democracy are supposed to be aware of. Charitable people see them as "dear souls" who are "in the clouds" or "in there own world".
Now is this an especially bad thing? Probably not, in he grand scheme of things. But what about the "200% of life"? What about "success in life" - which in the West does not mean simply the metaphysical side, but material competency and everyday comfort as well?
By the way, th really long rounding courses were not necessarily required in order to produce the condition of which I speak.
I suggest, for the sake of honesty, that you replace your current intro text with the following: "Outsider misinformation about how, based on our negative, distorted perceptions, and as true believers in our own cynicism, we perceive the Transcendental Meditation™ techniques, TM movement & its founder, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Our bloggers parrot the negative comments of other naysayers, endorse one another's "victim mentality," and present undiscriminating, thoughtless criticizing views of TM claims & research. (Anything goes, as long as it's negative!) We report allegations of deception by TM organizations, regardless of how unfounded, irrational and disingenuous those allegations are, & we offer reports that some individuals experience harm from involvement, even though there is absolutely no respectable, well-controlled empirical evidence showing that meditation has any negative side effects whatsoever, and even though these reports never come from scientists or independent parties but from mentally unstable and delusional individuals who have no respectable, professional credentials whatsoever."
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