Ashley's story: My experience of my husband's journey into Transcendental Meditation

Stock photo of a generic young couple, not the contributors.
(scop.io)

Here's the second of the personal stories contributed by Tony and Ashley (not their real names), a couple who were challenged by Tony's involvement with the Transcendental Meditation program. This is Ashley's recounting of her experience, in which she explains how she watched her husband both gain some benefits from TM practice, while his behavior and beliefs changed in ways she found uncomfortable and disturbing. She describes in detail how an individual's priorities can radically change over time through TM involvement, beginning with simple twice-a-day TM, to the point of threatening their marriage. All of this occurred despite the frequently repeated claims by TM teachers that TM doesn't involve a change in beliefs or lifestyle. Fortunately, as Tony recalled in the first part, he disengaged from the TM program and they're now working to bring their relationship back to normal.

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My experience of my husband's journey into Transcendental Meditation: 

A few years ago my husband Tony announced that he would like to learn Transcendental Meditation. He'd been looking into various mindfulness apps and still hadn't found what he was looking for. At this time he suffered from crippling social anxiety to the point where it was difficult for us to even have a normal social life, so I agreed that this was worth a try. The cost seemed pretty exorbitant and part of me was skeptical, but if this form of meditation worked the way it said, it would it all be worth it. 

There were a few odd things about the course: Despite being "non-religious" it started with a ritual involving prayer, fruit and a handkerchief but this was no big deal really and he did love what he learned. Despite my doubts, my husband threw himself into this new regime of meditating morning and night for 20 minutes, and indeed it did seem to be working. We could now go to a dinner party or drinks with his colleagues without him becoming agitated and withdrawn on the way there. In this one small way TM had changed both of our lives for the better and it had all been worth it. The daily meditation continued like clockwork. 

My husband started going along to weekly meetings at his local TM center which was only 10 minutes walk from our house. He'd found an exciting new interest and wanted to meet others who practiced TM. He went along to an advanced course which would set us back about an extra US$ 600. I didn't mind the cost but I was quite surprised when he seemed to be back from the course within an hour or so each day. Surely a weekend course costing that much money would be all weekend? 

He continued his meditation through the following months and there were more advanced courses and a few weekend retreats. These were very regimented programs of relaxation which sounded awful from an outsider's point of view but he loved them, so I was keen to be supportive. 

I can't pinpoint at exactly what point in the process my husband began changing his belief system, but I remember some very uncomfortable discussions where he was telling me things that just sounded plain crazy as non-negotiable facts. Some of these facts were: 

• That if he did enough advanced courses he could learn "yogic flying," a basic form of beginner levitation that would eventually lead to him being able to fly.
  
• That a certain number of people doing yogic flying together could stop wars and car accidents in other parts of a country where yogic flying was happening.
  
• That some kind of a forcefield of goodness was created by meditators, especially those practicing yogic flying.
  
• That everyone in the world must do TM in order to live fully to their potential.
  
• That TM was the answer to climate change. 

Tony's story of his journey through, and out of, the TM program

We’ve received here at the TM-Free Blog, a dual submission of personal stories, from Tony, a meditator, and his wife Ashley. Their names have been changed to protect their anonymity. Here's Tony's story, which starts with his search for a meditation practice, and ends, while deciding not to proceed with the TM-Sidhis, also known as the "Yogic Flying" course, with the realization that he'd "been handing over my mind to the TM organization in exchange for 'Enlightenment.'" He also talks frankly about the balance between the benefits of TM that he experienced, and what those benefits might have eventually cost him if he'd continued down the path of deeper involvement with the TM program.

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Photo illustration of a TM lecture, with video.
(Shutterstock/BBC World Service)

I’ve always been interested in the non-physical world, lightly dabbled in various meditations and read various spiritual books over the years. However, in 2016, I decided to make a go of practicing meditation. I wished to find an inner sense of stability in life and not get as stressed internally about upcoming events or past failures. 

The most popular way that didn’t involve a teacher was using the Headspace app to develop a mindfulness meditation practice. I practiced this daily for a few months and indeed found benefits of more control of my reactivity in stressful or pressured situations, such as at work. This was great but I felt like the meditation was a lot of hard work for the mind, struggling to bring it back to focus on something all the time, and I had the feeling there must be a more effortless technique out there. I stumbled upon Transcendental Meditation (TM). I was disappointed in not being able to find much about the technique online - it always said one needs to learn it from a teacher. However, as my luck would have it, I found a TM teacher close by so I signed up for an intro talk. I was a bit confused about why the teacher wouldn’t tell me much about the technique itself, they just went on and on about the benefits. However, I was intrigued and had to find out if it was indeed that beneficial. 

So, a few months later I learned TM from this certified teacher. In my very first meditation (at the instruction session) I experienced a profound settling of my mind - moments of beautiful silence. This seemed encouraging. As it seemed very expensive given the length of the course (about US$ 1000 for 1 hr/day over 4 consecutive days), I was very dedicated to doing the prescribed 20 minutes morning and 20 minutes in the evening every day without fail. Within my first week, my social anxiety dropped to virtually zero. I realized this one day when about to go to a social gathering and the very uncomfortable feeling of wanting to get out of my own skin and run and hide from the world was simply gone. Over the next few months, the enjoyability of my meditations always varied - mostly on the enjoyable side. Once back from our 2 month summer vacation, I made sure to attend the free Thursday evening TM center group meditations with the hope of maximising my progress. 

During these Thursday group sessions, after the 20-minute group meditation, the teacher would show videos of Maharishi (the founder of TM) talking on various subjects. I found listening to Maharishi’s answers rather long-winded, and he didn’t always make total sense to me. Meditation seemed to be enhancing my life by slowly but surely giving me a sense of inner calm. Thus I had developed quite an enthusiasm for promoting it and would find myself recommending it to other people and talking about it whenever the chance arose in conversation. 

TM-Free Blog requests "flying" memories for study

Did you learn the TM-Sidhi's "yogic flying"?  What was your experience of it?  Some readers have commented that when they learned it, they realized "yogic flying" was a fraud.  When they "lifted off," they were aware that they were propelling themselves with their own muscles, similar to jumping or gymnastics.

But other people report that their subjective experience was the opposite - that it really felt like they were defying gravity, and were being lifted up by something outside their own conscious selves.

I hypothesize that there is a correlation between people's subjective experiences of "flying" and their speed of recovery from TM.  I hypothesize that those who experienced themselves as truly levitating without muscular effort were more suggestible.  Another way of saying that is that they were easier to hypnotize.  Or one could say that their mind/body coordination was more disrupted than those who were able to accurately experience the procedure as a volitional muscle activity.  So I am hypothesizing that their recovery from TM was more arduous.

Mahesh Yogi liked to say that TM and the TM-Sidhis increased mind-body co-ordination.  But I wonder if the opposite was true for some or all - that the "flying" may have disrupted the relationship between the mind and the body, because it trained one to not notice the mind sending instructions to the thigh muscles.

So I am requesting readers to comment below.  What was your experience of "yogic flying"?  And did you recover rapidly from TM's brainwashing and its cognitive, emotional or physical side-effects ?  Or was your recovery slow?

Second Hand Cult Abuse - Fifty Years

A TMFree Reader sent the following story in a small series of emails.
She gave permission to post the story minus names.
This resembles stories of many who lost loved ones to TM, or have TM family members.

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I have been reading some blogs over the past few days and wonder if anyone is interested in my experience with TM?  I have communicated with ++++ a number of times. It comes in waves, at the moment I have been following the Pandit riot.  Anyway to cut a long story short I am a 70 year old grandma in Australia whose marriage and life was messed up for a very long time due to the fact my (ex) husband's obsession with TM.

Has anyone looked into the effect on families, i.e. those partners who are not TMers and what they are put througyh and what numbers divorce?  I would very much like to be in touch with other such persons here in Australia. I am sure there must be a number just like me.

MM visited Australia on 7 Dec 1967. Husband was asked to organise accommodation, media etc. We picked MM up from the airport in our little car. MM wrapped his sari around him pushed me aside and squeezed into the front seat leaving me carrying a 16 month old and heavily pregnant to attempt to get into the back seat.  It started right there. I was pushed aside over and over for 20 years until finally I said enough. I am still getting over the constant TM bashing (like a non smoker who inhales cigarette smoke I was contaminated).

Briefly my ex husband (of over 20 years) did the teacher training course in Fiuggi in 1972. We had been living in Italy for 2 years and I was sent home along with my +++ children ++++. He stayed for 3 months. This was upsetting for the children and put even a bigger burden on me. Starting children in school alone, opening the house after a rental of 2 years, getting used to Australian way of life etc.  He had been meditating since the early 1960s but it did not seem a big problem back then.   

When my husband returned from Fiuggi in 1972 he announced almost immediately he returned that sex would have to fit in with his duties as a TM teacher, i.e. none before or during...what a shock for a young 27 year old to be told essentially that our sexual relationship would make him "impure". That I would have to "book" him ahead of time. He didn't say that in so many words but for all those years that is what I carried inside me. Our married sex life was over really. 

Anyway "Down the Rabbit Hole" has left a big impression on me. I do so identify with what and who my husband became in those years after Fiuggi.  I think you call it "disassociation"? wonderful word and describes him exactly.     

He did his teacher training in TM in 1972 in Fiuggi as I said and we had just completed a 2 year stint in Genova where he did post doctoral work at the University.  I observed a changed person when he came home 3 months later. He was glassy eyed for weeks and talked of little else than the film the TMers had seen at the end of the course...The Beatles Yellow Submarine!!  I was so exasperated. I had spent 3 months learning to live back in Australia with 2 little boys beginning school. The "disappearance" of their father for such a long time had a long term effect on our eldest son who was very stressed at beginning school without his Dad around.

TM replaced a father who should have been around for his children. He never had time to take his sons to sports etc and was minimally involved in their lives. As for me I spent school holidays alone with the children as +++ chose those times (Uni holidays) to go on his extra TM courses.    

But those 25 years were a big part of my life and should have been healthy happy ones. I am also very angry with myself for tolerating so much for so long. Why didn't I leave so much earlier and had the chance of beginning a new life without him or TM?   But gradually I began to believe there was something wrong with me because I didn't embrace TM. I put 150% into our marriage because I thought if I worked harder he would care more for me. The more I did the less he did, so the last few years he sent all his spare time meditating and running marathons. My mother in law asked me why I worked so hard!

Fortunately I prevented ++++ taking the +++ children++  out of the highly prestigeous school they had managed to gain entry for. He wanted to put them in a newly opened TM school (as I suspected the school lasted all of 6 months). Thankfully I won that one. 

Recently +++ has spoken to the family about having a unit with the door "facing the right way". My son thought he meant Feng Shuey (dont know how to spell it)...but I realise now that it is another directive from the movement. It's just never ending.  In short TM I have believed for a very long time is an addiction for some people, or rather for people "in the hierarchy of the movement".  +++  was/is very influential in the movement in Australia. I know now that a lot of our money was syphoned off to the movement which is why I never had access to our bank accounts etc.    

Mostly I dont think about TM these days (unless at one of the grandchildrens' parties and their grandfather is there, then I get all shaky which seems ridiculous). When I begin to read some of the stories online which I do every now and then it takes me days to get over reading about things I was so close to. I really dont understand it as I have been alone for 25 years now. A counsellor told me, much to my horror, that I was emotionally abused. No he never laid a hand on me but I know that it was abuse. Being made to feel a 2nd rate human being on the "enlightened scale" , being called crazy, are not the acts of a so called "enlightened" person are they? Problem is my children and friends think of him as a quiet gentle person. They also think I should "get over it". I had noone to speak with about this in those 20 years as we lived interstate. Had we been near parents and friends he wouldn't have got away with his actions and behaviour. Because I was the one to initiate a divorce I was treated very badly by his parents for some time. Ironically toward the end of mother in law's life she confided in me that they both "live on another planet"!!! Whoa why didn't she speak up sooner? 

Anyway I do feel for you having been in a real family tradition of TM. I truly don't know how you cope.  Joe was great..I know some TMers have referred online to his "mental condition". That seems a standard comment about ex TMers who speak out and must originate somewhere in the movement?  I also came across an item referring to MM saying bad things would happen to those TMers who did not conform to his wishes, or some such thing.  In Weggis one of the little TM children I spoke of referred to an Australian couple whose little girl was born deaf...he, all of 8 years, said Maharishi told those people not to marry and that is why they had a deaf baby....scary?

I am amazed and truly horrified at the recent riot in Fairfield and the details surrounding it. Haven't the authorities done anything about these people?  My ex husband spent 10 years on the Fairfield University Campus after we divorced (with wife #2 also a teacher). He was a Prof of Mathematics and no dill, or I didn't think so for a long time.

We also spent 6 months in Lucerne Switzerland where husband was wired for the brain wave stuff. I saw a lot of neglected children in Weggis (children of very well known TMers and was horrified at the lack of time education and care taken of these children (who latched onto me as a sort of 2nd mother as I wasn't involved in the TM side of things).

I would love to hear of anyone in a similar position to me.  You see even now writing this I feel a sense of guilt and fear.  Discussing TM brings on a trembling and agitation I can't explain.  I have seen and heard what the movement is capable of over a period of 50 years.

Sincerely

  

Grandmother in Australia

Old Yogi Pension Fund Ends!

(SCROLL DOWN FOR 5/20/13 ADDENDUM)

Those who lost the most from their devotion to Transcendental Meditation, having never obtained a functional career and are unable to focus in the material world, have three months to generate an income. They will be on their own and must learn to support themselves.

Emails have been flying with the latest TM Movement news that the Settle Fund will cease in 90 days. See recent blog post "Dozing for Dollars" which described a sort  of “Old Yogi Pension Fund” of a subsistence wage, calculated by some to average $3.80 per hour, for those who meditated full time.  

Transcendental Meditation’s spiritually elite Citizen Sidhas and Governors of the Age of Enlightenment who’ve supported themselves in recent years by full participation in the padded domes’ meditation programs are already seeking personal sponsorships from TM’s wealthy to continue their lifestyle.

According to circulating emails, Bevan Morris made this announcement last week in an “Experience Meeting” of the Invincible America (I.A.) Assembly.

Once again, the TM cult organization blames the victims for their loss of livelihood, rather than owning up to the learned helplessness which Maharishi encouraged through his teaching of “Do less accomplish more until you do nothing and accomplish everything”.

One person seeking sponsorships shared Bevan’s claim “... how sad the Settles were after investing 100 million dollars over the last 7 years and not reaching the goal of 2000 yogic flyers in the golden domes.  Howard (Settle) expressed his disappointment in not being able to get the 400 pundits we needed from India; he feels this was a major factor in his lack of success in the last few months.”

 

(what hooey!)

Per one post on the Fairfield Life yahoo group,  “Yep, Dr. Bevan Morris, Prime Minister of the Global Country of World Peace and President of Maharishi University of Management yesterday morning announced to the Invincible America Assembly the end of the Invincible America grant program.”   

Of note, there never was a stable endowment for these sponsorships. Personal grants were supported by depleting an account established by Howard and Alice Settle. As Mike Doughney commented on the “Dozing for Dollars” post :

“ Basically, the foundation that's been offering the grants to dome snoozers was set up by the donation of an exploration company owned by Howard to the foundation, the foundation in turn sold it off / "liquidated" it and invested the proceeds.

That investment isn't enough to pay out the grants they've been handing out indefinitely, so the investment was consumed over just a few years. I.e. if they wanted it to last indefinitely they'd have it pay out a few percent of its value, no more, every year. They didn't do that, instead they paid it out at a very high rate, so it was gone after a few years, presumably. The IRS filings confirm this up through two years ago, eventually the filings for the current year will come out and the exact reasons will be public.

I would also note that this deal with the Settles and their foundation, as far as I can tell, is a bit different from the predecessors like the Kaplans in that the foundation money, though looped through the "Global Country," is, as far as I can tell, fully accounted for as to what its final destination is (this small group of Fairfield residents in the domes under certain rather tight conditions, and perhaps, a small administrative cut of it kept by the "Country"). The Kaplan money seems to have vanished off to India where, I would presume, it went into their school and other enterprises there. Once offshore, and particularly, in India, keeping track of where the money went would, I think, become difficult.”

According to an anonymous email “Bevan explained that the leaders of the movement have been meeting for days to come up with some solutions.”

+++ Addendum +++ May 20, 2013 +++

Commentary upon "Dr." Bevan Morris' email from MUM's development office :

From: development@mum.edu
To:
Sent: Mon, May 20, 2013 1:59 PM EDT
Subject: Important change in the Invincible America Assembly

Dear Friend of Maharishi University of Management,

 Bevan explains that :

"The Settle Foundation is facing financial challenges due to difficulties that have arisen in the past five months in the business that underlies the foundation's giving."

Bevan defers to Raja John Hagelin's directives and explains the situation : 

Word of this has reached the Invincible America Assembly grant recipients, so Raja John Hagelin asked me to explain the situation to everyone on the Assembly, which I did on Thursday.

I explained that the Settle grants would be coming to an end over the next months.

He suggests that the grant recipients find gainful employment during their few free hours daily. This reminds me of the 1979 first Word Peace Assembly when Maharishi told everyone to brainstorm on businesses to support themselves in Fairfield - resulting in numerous scammers, multi-level marketing businesses, telemarketing and other fly-by-night scenarios, some of which were shut down for SEC violations.

I said everyone should quickly make plans to be self-sufficient through "cashing in" in the afternoon (i.e., working at a job in the afternoon) as Maharishi described it, or any other approach, including, at least for some, personal funds.

Bevan attempts to explain himself, clarifying rumors that must have circulated after his public announcement. As in the past, no promises are made, but always efforts to provide for those dependent : 

I also said Raja John Hagelin, Raja Wynne and Maureen, Raja Bob Lopinto, Raja Harris  and myself are trying to come up with a plan for new sources of income that will allow the program to continue as much as possible, and we are talking to our Indian leaders about this. Of course, supporting the 600 Vedic Pandits we have here now is extremely important, and if we are successful in raising new funds, bringing the 400 Maharishi Vedic Pandits who are in India waiting to come, to create a much higher level of national coherence.

Innuendo provides a ray of hope for the most consistent participants (and therefore, least capable of holding a job) : 

I emphasized that in the future the grant, when available, would probably be for a smaller number of Yogic Flyers, especially the most active flyers, who do really long flying and make a long-term commitment to the Invincible America Assembly program. Maharishi said this from the beginning and Dr. Doug and Dr. Linda Birx have been working on this throughout. This will reduce the numbers, but we will have a more powerful group.

I pointed out the present situation means that we have been depending on the generosity of Howard and Alice too much. We need to take responsibility afresh to engage all the Sidhas of America in national invincibility.

Ever emphasizing the love and beauty of these generous souls, and how enlightened and feel-good everyone is : 

The response was extremely beautiful. Speaker after speaker sent their infinite love and gratitude to the Settles, saying they understand how they must be feeling, and want them only to feel the depth of their gratitude and love.

Yes, the I.A.A course existed before the grant - formerly known as the Creating Coherence Course - once costing $200 monthly per person to attend. Does anyone know the current cost? Oh, but wait! That's not necessary! You can apply to MUM and use governmental backed loans and other student financial aid to receive academic credit for your time on the sheet-covered padded foam! Maybe even obtain a doctorate in Vedic Studie$$!

The common feeling was that the Invincible America Assembly will continue even without the grant. The Assembly Maharishi created even before there was a grant, and it will continue even now that the grant is not possible for some time. Some also said they would apply to become Maharishi University of Management students so they could use financial aid to continue.

So what's the focus on Mexico? 8,000? hmm.. there should be no more crime in Mexico! (by Maharishi's own calculations, right?) : 

They suggested we fly at the same time as the 8,000 Yogic Flyers in Oaxaca, Mexico, that we adjust lift-off for flying time to accommodate people with jobs in Fairfield, and other positive ideas. They reminded us that Maharishi said, "I am--India and America for a bright future for the world" and we have to fulfill Maharishi's direction, all of us together.

It was a very moving and even blissful occasion. We will continue in the Invincible America Assembly experience session with more thinking from everyone.

A new campaign is also starting for all Sidhas in Fairfield, Maharishi Vedic City, and nationally to participate in the Invincible America Assembly to create a better fortune for the nation.

In closure, it's imperative to thank those who gave $100 million to support the coiffures of Maharishi's family business.

We are all so grateful to Howard and Alice for giving nearly $100 million over the past seven years--it is really just phenomenal and historic--and we know that they will continue to do everything to support national invincibility.

With Best Wishes,

Jai Guru Dev

Bevan

 (President of Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa, Prime Minister of the Global Country of World Peace, President of Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation, Prime Minister of the United States Peace Government, President of the Maharishi World Peace Fund, and a founder of the Natural Law Party)
  

We at TMFree sincerely hope that those who've become dependent upon the Settle grant are able to find and hold gainful employment, and a life beyond cult dependency.

Dozing for Dollars - Advanced Transcendental Meditation provides for the Eternally Dissociated

(This tongue-in-cheek advertisement describes a real fund for TM-Sidhas and TM-Governors to practice advanced TM Programs as their full time job, 8-hours daily, in the Golden Domes of the Age of Enlightenment on Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa).

At last - you can earn a living while contributing to the supernatural hypothetical Maharishi Effect for World Peace!

You too can receive up to $815 monthly to participate 8 hours daily in Fairfield's Invincible America Program, otherwise known as the "I.A. Course". To make it even easier, I.A. Course commitment was reduced to only one month at a time!

Howard and Alice Settle oil and gas moguls amongst Maharishi's wealthiest devotees, created Howard and Alice Settle Foundation  with an annual twelve-million-dollar grant for an Invincible America fund to support Maharishi's vision, and get TM's embarrassing dissociated space-cadettes off the streets of cozy Fairfield Iowa. Maharishi University awarded honorary Doctorates in World Peace to the Settles for their donations to this effort.

The qualifications are simple :

Are you unable to support yourself after years of dissociative "transcendental consciousness" as experienced during Maharishi's TM-Sidhi Program and living on Maharishi's promises of "Do Less Accomplish More", until you are unable to do anything?

Did you invest yourself in advanced TM training to become a Sidha - an enlightened being with mystical powers including levitation for promised rewards of health, wealth and enlightenment?

Are you unable to support yourself with your useless advanced degree in Vedic Science from Maharishi University of Management  for which your federally guaranteed student loans are now in default?

Did you spend your working years training and teaching TM or working on staff at Maharishi's facilities for a marginal livelihood without retirement funds?

Are you able to converse only with those who share a history in the TM Movement?

Do you feel emotionally safe only with other TM-Sidhas or TM-Governors?

Do your pre-TM family and contacts refuse to financially support you? 

Do you miss counting the myriad of triangles in the umbrella-curved geodesic dome ceiling?

Then the Settle Sponsorship for Invincible America is for you! 

Rather than publicly embarrassing the TM Movement by wandering in poverty, you'll have a warm place to go every day with others who are also qualified only to close their eyes in one of two large wooden domes, embraced in Maharishi's safety net inside the prairie's two man-made breasts on Maharishi campus.  

Listen to Howard Settle speak of the devotional cult value this advanced program. As you watch the video, note Howard Settle's enlightened clothing, the required tan or silk suit and gold tie, and his office with expensively approved Sthapatya Veda style architecture.

Thanks to Howard & Alice Settle's generosity, you too can receive between $700 - $815 monthly to attend the dome program with 3 - 4 rounds daily - each round consists of a cycle of asanas, pranayama, meditation and sidhis. Two rounds in the morning and one or two in the afternoon. This takes about 8 hours daily of your time, seven days a week. You will further your experiences of deep transcendence, err dissociation, and help assure the needed numbers for Maharishi's promised Super-Radiance Effect.

At last, “Program” will be your 56-hour-weekly job! 

You can claim to be one of the global elite with your full time commitment to enlightenment and world peace! 

You will have no excuse not to meditate yourself to greater enlightenment experiences, otherwise known as further dissociation! 

Your rising Kundalini towards your crown chakra will be assured by Settle Program monitors who remind you to remain sitting up during program, rather than snoring in drool on those rumpled white sheets over the high density rebound-foam. Unlike those who pay for their own Program participation, you will not be allowed to sleep horizontally throughout “Program time” (of course, you must lie down during regulated rest times). 

Video about TM & Kundalini : 

Settle monitors were instituted after homeless grant recipients used to access a warm group snooze to fulfill their daily commitment to the I.A. course, because they were bored with expensively learned mental recitations.  Then they partied all night after sleeping in the domes. 

If you are a long term meditator, the sitting requirement should not dissuade you from needed sleep, since most long-term meditators can readily sleep in a sitting position.

Today, some recipients of the Settle grant rotate nights on the sofas of other Fairfield friends as they live in support Maharishi's vision. Other grant recipients rent a cheap room nearby. A few recipients supplement a small Social Security check with their Settle grant for a reasonable Fairfield-based lifestyle.

If you are in good standing with the TM Movement, you can apply for the Settle monthly stipend with this Financial Support Request.

Two important caveats :  

1) Program attendance is mandatory to receive your stipend! You must attend at least 80% of the scheduled Programs to receive your stipend. If you miss more than 20% of Dome Program in a given month, your stipend will be forfeited.  

2) You must remain in good standing with the TM Movement by living an exemplary TM-Sidha lifestyle and never question nor speak negatively about Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the Transcendental Meditation Movement.  

Fine print : There is no guarantee how long this fund will continue. When the Settle funds ends, you will be back on the streets begging for sponsorships in the old TM tradition.

Selling Sizzle (not Steak) : Transcendental Meditation, David Lynch and Pandits

This “Africa for Norway” video exemplifies how TM’s fundraising sells feel-good sizzle, without evaluating the steak :

Yes, the video spoofs the successful business model of fundraising charities that do not provide substance. 

(To read more about this creative team highlighting racism and charity abuse, click here.)

The David Lynch Foundation is sponsoring (yet another) feel-good benefit gala to bring Transcendental Meditation to veterans with PTSD and at-risk youth.

The merit of the steak behind the DLF’s sizzle, Transcendental Meditation, has not been  properly evaluated, and in this case may even be dangerous for the trauma victims they claim to help. TM is a dissociative meditation.  TM's numbing dissociative meditation may cause further long-term harm to the  targeted PTSD survivors and at-risk youth that David Lynch's Foundation claims to help.

The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation studies the very real phenomenon of dissociation related to trauma and PTSD. More can be found about dissociation and trauma in other psychology and public health journals. The Transcendental Meditation Organization breaches ethics by teaching trance-induction dissociative practices to this vulnerable population.

Oxford University research scientist Kathleen Taylor, author of 2004 Brainwashing; The Science of Thought Control, writes that soldiers with PTSD are especially vulnerable to suggestion. Experts on brainwashing, the late Margaret Singer and still-living Robert Jay Lifton conducted their first brainwashing research on military PTSD survivors, Korean War POWs. 

Maharishi's promised “transcendental bliss” actually triggers dissociation in many practitioners. Anyone who has been around the TM Movement knows the “bliss ninnies” or “space cadets”, as we once called the walking zombie-like members of our beloved "TM Family" cult. 

TMFree's Sudarsha wrote in a private email : “If politicians advocate something, no one believes them. If your parents advocated something, you couldn't get far enough away. If the minster/priest/rabbi/imam advocates something, everyone is suspicious ... but if a celebrity advocates something, everyone immediately believes it's real, good, desirable, necessary, right and certainly something one needs to get as quickly as possible.

Not sure why this is so, but, at least for those who might be seen as prone to addiction (very broadly, of course), this seems to be the case, so a fund-raiser by celebrities ... well, that's a no-brainer! Surely celebrities can and must be trusted!”  Thanks, Sud'!


Meanwhile, another insider sizzle email provides updates on Vedic City's growing pandit compound. From Maharishi's invented Global Country of World Peace, we offer excerpts :

To our dear Movement family,

The Vedic Pandits are finally coming—not just the original 556 but a total of 600!

We know you’ve been waiting for some time to receive this update. So we are delighted to finally have some concrete news to give you.

With the addition of this group of Pandits, we will achieve a stable Super Radiance group of 2,000 Yogic Flyers to create Invincibility for America, a goal we have all worked towards for 30 years.

Of course, they require more money to keep the sizzle popping :

What more is needed?

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The "Movement Family" fundraising letter closes with TM's Raja Royalty :

Warmest wishes,

Jai Guru Dev,

Raja John Hagelin

Raja Harris

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We at TMFree encourage everyone to learn about the steak behind any tantalizing sizzle. Don’t just donate or buy based upon feel-good advertising. Don’t fall for celebrity - studded good intentions.

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Jai to Freedom, to free thought and honest discourse,

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SH*T RU'S SAY

Comedic Dogma from TM SGAs (Second Generation Adults).
Thanks to Lanie, Soangela and Chamolie!

Showcases crazy-making thought-stopping techniques of a TM-based upbringing.





(Do any other post-TM women, besides me, avoid pastel shawls?)

Enjoy!

Jai to Freedom!

Conversation with Dr. Fred Travis about Transcendental Meditation Research

Some of our readers were following a recent conversation with Fred Travis, Ph.D., professor of Maharishi Vedic Science at Maharishi University of Mangement about his recent research on Transcendental Meditation and human brain functioning.

The comments followed John Knapp's post of March 6, 2010 More Doubtful Transcendental Meditation "Research" Clogging the Intertubes

Fred Travis deserves credit for his integrity to participate in discussion with readers of TMFree blog. We can be a trying group!

Some of the comments mysteriously disappeared and others were edited.

Paul Mason, biographer of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, revived the original conversation, reproduced here below, for those who wish to read the conversation. Thanks, Paolo! :

*****************

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
1. The study used a random assignment design, the strongest resaerch design that controls for most confounds to study results. I hope people will weigh the study based on it's scientific character.

2. The cost of the article is to the journal. They own the copyrights to the article. Anyone can get this article from their library.

3. David Haaga does not practice TM. He is in the psychology dept at American University. He was Principle Investigator on this study, and monitored each step of the study. He saw this as an oportunity to use the tools of science to investigate TM in an objective way. I hope your readers will also be truly objective, and grade the paper on its own merits--not on biases they may have
Saturday, March 06, 2010, 5:20:40 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

The Watcher
Hi Fred

I agree that just because research is done by the TM movement doesn't mean it's rubbish.

I think we should be objective and see if it gets replicated and added to man's general knowledge about himself and the world.

But I also think that the TMO could be doing more research to actually try and prove more of it's money making "programmes", like yagyas for instance. Or MVVT, surely the biggest load of nonsense you can spend money on? Or Sthapatya ved, are these houses really invincible? Are people really healthier when their front door faces east? All of this would be easy to test.

Or maybe an honest report into the bizarre claims of John Hagelin and his unified field ideas and how he tries to con the unknowledgable into believing there is an actual physics basis to yogic flying or astrology?

Or how about the claims that groups of "coherence creators" reduce negative traits in society as a whole? Aren't you all embarassed at the failure of the invincible America project or are you still claiming it's all a phase transition?

These are all good areas of research Fred, if you are interested in science and think it's a good way of demonstrating the value of things I think you should get on it and let the world know. I suspect you already know that most of the TM programmes are nonsense but as the organisation makes money from them and have a huge amount of belief invested in the vedas it might be embarassing to admit that it's all hot air. Am I right?
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 7:39:07 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit –
ModerateLiked byGinajmknapp53

Gina
Hello Fred!

You would recognize me in person. You are a good caring, committed person trying to make a difference in the world through scientifically documenting your belief system.

How about studying measures of life functionality from prolonged rounding, say after several months or more of rounding, or years on the 'Creating Coherence Program' (CCP)?

e.g - the ability to hold a job (not just live off the family trust fund)
- the ability to maintain long term intimate relationships (Most TM echelon are unmarried. If they have children, the majority of those children use extensive drugs and alcohol to self-medicate as teens, then leave TM)
- the capacity for independent decision making (life style, personal goals, manner of dress, etc)
- the capacity for rational discourse

These are difficult things to study, however many of us have lived and seen greatly diminished life functionality in TM True Devotees (to the points of psychosis and suicides).. thus our participation on this blog.

VERY limited individuality seen in those who've experienced long term rounding. You cannot deny that.

In fact, numbers of long term rounders are unable to hold down jobs and currently live off the Settle's grant program to pay them to continue to round (austensibly to support world peace from hours of daily meditation in the domes). They live in near poverty on a few hundred dollars monthly stipend, while spending hours daily as dome zombies. The grown children of at least a few of those nonfunctional folks have gone by the wayside to society's underbelly.

There would be a statistically significant number of such folks in truly randomized studies of long term rounders.

However the study designs purposely do not include such groups for which such TM casualties would qualify as subjects. Maharishi had dictated to design studies that only demonstrate TM's positive results. Studies and statistics can be designed to only highlight the researchers' desired points.

Years ago I was recruited for TM studies as the researchers considered me a good candidate. The researchers "did not want to include heavy unstressors as subjects since heavy unstressing would alter the results" When in fact, what TMers call "heavy unstressing" would be an important research finding!

g
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 8:14:31 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53Bjarne

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Hi Gina
I am also concerned about the issues you bring up about long rounding.
Thank you for bringing these to my attention again.
All the best
Fred
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 6:46:28 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53ruthGinaBjarne

ruth
Thank you Fred.

I am concerned about the IA program and the grants to support meditators. I understand that the grantor wants the money to go to people who are meditating. However, because money is tied to meditating and there are no regular days off (IA goes on day in and day out without fail) I am concerned that people are doing too much program and may be suffering adverse effects. Is there any research going on concerning the participants in IA? Any efforts to ensure people are not over doing it?
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 11:22:53 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Hi Gina
I wanted to expand my response to your points.
First about recruiting people for a study:
All researchers will exclude people from a study. If you are looking at normal functioning you would exclude those with previous psychiatric history, neurologic disorders, or drug history. If you are doing a clinical study, you would exclude healthy people J
(This was brought to my mind today in communicating with a researcher who practices Mindfulness Meditation who is comparing EEG between four different meditations, including TM.)
Second, in your points there is a assumed causality that long rounding may be harmful.
Let’s look at the big picture. NIH Mental Health estimates 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml). Since 25% of the general population has a diagnosable mental disorder, some of them will be coming to TM with that disorder. It would not be that TM caused the disorder; they came with that.
An epidemiology study in Sweden addressed this directly. Since it is socialized medicine they had records of all Swedes who were in psychiatric hospitals. The percent of people in psychiatric hospitals who practice TM was 100 smaller than the percentage of people in practicing TM in the population. This suggests TM does not cause psychiatric problems.
Research is now being done to test effects of TM practice on ADHD (two studies), bipolar disorder and PTSD (in progress now.) The research is being done and will come out.
Bottom line, is to date, there is no systematic research that indicates that long rounding, under proper supervision, causes permanent mental problems.
All the best
Fred
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 10:22:45 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Sorry Fred...Your conclusions are not correct from a strict epidemiological point of view. You are comparing two completely different populations, not in any way whatsoever matched for age, sex, geographical living, work, marriage, number of children, drug and alcohol habbits, social backgrond such as religious views and social standing. This is the most serious fault in your conclusion. Secondly there could be a lot of reasons why in patients at psychiatric hospitals have a history of TM to a lesser degree compared to TMers admitted to psychiatric hospitals. Seriously, a few reasons: 1) they committed suicide 2) due to religious, philosofic or other beliefs, they refused treatment at a psychiatric institiution...just to mension a few bias. But Yes! we do have high standard in our epidemiological research in Sweden due to our healthcare system.
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 11:01:47 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byruth

ruth
I agree with Bjarne's comment. The issue is that there is a lack of research focusing specifically on potential problems with rounding. We have some anecdotal information. This information should be sufficient to at least see that it might be an issue and spend some time, money and effort on teasing out that issue with research to see if there is any correlation between rounding and exacerbation or creation of mental health issues. This issue is separate and apart from whether simple TM (or any relaxation technique) is useful in helping with issues like ADHD or PTSD.
Friday, March 12, 2010, 10:15:59 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Hi
There has been one paper on Sthapatya Veda--natualistic obervation.
There have been 25 published studies that have investiagted effects of groups practicing TM on measureable indicators. I can email those papers if you would like.

You are right. There are no studies on Yagya, and one on MVVT. Yes they need to be investigated.

All the best
Fred
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 6:31:43 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

The Watcher
We'll leave it in your capable hands then?
Monday, March 08, 2010, 9:12:38 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina

JB

Just a little goofing ..... If you do research in a building who's entrance is not facing the correct way, is it a valid experiment? And, when you do an experiment, do you consult an astrologer to see if its a good time to do it? Do researchers wear those burger king hats?
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 7:48:44 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byBjarneruth

Bjarne
Hahaha!!! Loved it JB. Yes, many researchers outsite wear "burger king hats", just a slightly different design (differrent ego-masks), but many are dedicated and loving people......as in all fields of life. the good and the bad guy´s. Know its like spitting in church, but I know some very nice people, still deep within TMO, they are just temporarily in a fog as I see it......
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 8:39:14 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGinaruth

jmknapp53
Dr. Travis,

I want to thank you for taking the time to post your comments here. I believe you will add a lot to the conversation.

I hope to see more of you!

J.
Monday, March 08, 2010, 11:43:13 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Paul Mason aka Premanand
Fred, How can you be sure, either way, that ANYONE is practising TM in your experiments?
This is a serious question.
I mean to say, once someone closes their eyes, how are you to know what they are doing or not doing inside their head?
Furthermore, since the TM mantras are 'secret', and are presumeably not disclosed during research, how would you know that ANY of the participants are practising TM? And even if they were disclosed how could you be sure that the participant was not then swapping the mantra for another, or just thinking about some Hindu deity.
If you do not wish to answer publicly I am quite happy to hear from you by email, at premanandpaul@yahoo.co.uk
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 10:21:02 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina

Mike Doughney
I agree with Paul, that the usual movement-sponsored research on TM avoids this obvious question. Seems to me that the enormous dropout rate known to any TM teacher indicates that the internal experience of TM may be wildly different from person to person, different over time, or even different from session to session. Some small number of people may feel they're experiencing something unusual after learning TM, but many just fall asleep for a while. There is, nor, I think, will there ever be any research focusing on this sort of basic question of what TM actually is when practiced at any one time by any one person.

There are many such areas that I assume are off-limits in TM research formally sponsored by MUM or other organizations that promote TM. I also assume that this is the implementation of a cryptic comment that TM movement lawyer Stephen Druker made to me back in 1979: "We want to make sure that they're going to protect the integrity of our subjects, because one's in a very delicate state when one is practicing these. And also that they've designed the experiment so that they won't disturb the meditative state and test something other than what they're supposed to test." (link) I think the list of things that are "something other than what they're supposed to test" includes anything that might place the efficacy, or for that matter, supremacy of TM over everything else into doubt. His comment implies that "research" involving the TMO carries with it certain a priori assumptions about what questions may be the subject of scientific inquiry.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 3:01:28 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Dear Paul

This is a good question.

First, I trust what the person says. After I record EEG, I ask the person to describe this meditation relative to their dialy practice. The meditation in the lab is usually as deep as their daily meditation. I also go over the EEG record with the person so they can see how they brain waves change from eyes open to eyes closed to TM. In this conversation, any issues should come out.

Trust is the basis of any relationship--even in science.

All the best

Fred
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 6:50:46 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Gina
Fred,

Thank you for the integrity to participate in discussion here!

Questions:

If Maharishi is/ was the expert on his branded Transcendental Meditation, why do you ask meditator's their subjective experiences?
Maharishi himself taught that we should not analyze our subjective meditative experience (although everyone compared "experiences" anyway)

Also, current MUM students emailed us that this website is banned from the MUM Internet server. Why is that?

Can studies be designed to measure endorphin production during meditation?
TM endorphins could meaurably explain various "bliss" experiences, as well as the increased pain threshold found in long term TMers, TM "visions"/ psychosis, and the addictive nature of TM and TMSP found by those who struggled to wean themselves from disocciative high / "witnessing" to integrate into
society.

Your responses are greatly appreciated, Fred.

Thank you,
g
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 9:33:55 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Paul Mason aka Premanand
Fred, thank you for your candour. I am shocked that at the core of these lab tests on TM meditation there is an absence of objective scientific scrutiny and total reliance on such a subjective quality as 'trust'. I believe the world has been lulled into believing the results of such tests, trusting that scientists use methods far more stringent than taking the participants word for what they are practising. I suspect that if Time Magazine or some such prestigious magazine ran an article on TM science, with our exchange quoted, it would easily persuade readers of the un-scientific nature of these experiments.
I hope you find a way of producing experiments on TM practise based on stronger proof. Good luck.
Paul
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 1:12:10 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53Guest

JB
Internal subjective practices are like this. If one is doing the Buddhist style Awareness type of stuff how do you know they are not thinking of cheeseburgers the whole time? Or in 8th path style yoga, instead of kriya, one could be thinking of the date last night. I suspect that is one reason that subjective approaches to truth are not "valid" scienctific pursuits. We don't need to revisit discussions of how many angels can dance on a pin.
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 10:53:21 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Paul, if you give a demographic form to a person, do you ask to see their phot ID to check their name? birth certificate to check their birthday? or take a blood sample to extract the DNA and check if the have XX or XY chromosomes? Of course not. All resaerchers trust the people who come into your study--not just TM resaerchers.

If a person says the answer to the math problem they did is "42" do you think they really got "34" and are just lying? Of course not.

All physiological research on subjective experience begins with asking the subject. If you ask people to create a positive mood, and then you ask them to rate how well they did it, do you accept their answer and group the data by the answer? Yes. All researchers start here. You can look at Davidson's work on emotions at Univ of Wisconsin at Madison.

With more resaerch you may be able to identify physiological patterns of the subjective state, and if those patterns are seen whenever the person has the emotion, and those patterns are never seen at anyother time, then you have a physioogical marker of the subjectie experience....but it starts with the subjective experience.
One caveat, on paper and pencil tests, there are questions to see if the person is faking good--called subject reacitivty. So, yes this is an issue. But it is the starting point of science.
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:32:14 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Its not so at all in medical research, .......a lot of no trust investigation going on in double blind studies of drug-trials. You cant have such a study published in a high impact journals without no trust cheks. Cheking by bloodsamples the drug concentration in the blod to check compliance. Pauls point is a good one indeed Fred !
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 9:56:44 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byPaul Mason aka Premanand

Paul Mason aka Premanand
Fred, I am not blaming you for the lack of technology in place to enable scientists to 'see' whether someone is meditating or not, but I don't believe you can 'prove' TM until the technology exists. But in the meantime you could try approaching the target from a different direction. Try testing people who claim to experience some of the symptoms of 'enlightenment'' and trying to work out how these symptoms are occuring (without asking the subjects what they are doing, in the first instance). Of course this would not be a specifically TM-orientated experiment so it would have little or no value to those trying to 'sell' TM. However, it would be very, very useful for the scientific understanding of meditation & its effects, which is something quite different I suspect.
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 10:42:10 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

jmknapp53

Dr. Travis,

I've begun reading the papers you kindly sent me. I appreciate your generosity of spirit and willingness to give of your time.

I wish I were more confident of my ability to understand your research, but what little I learned about statistics in graduate school has faded with time.

Nonetheless, I'd like to ask questions about the first paper I've worked through: "Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states." You are the lead author.

The paper discusses observed EEG coherence in 51 individuals self-reporting transcendence along with waking and sleeping. You specifically identify this as "enlightenment" in your conclusion.

I fear I've misunderstood, but the heart of the reasoning you present seems circular—or more properly "begging the question." It appears the proposition you are attempting to prove is assumed in your premise.

Unless I'm mistaken, some TMers came to you claiming they are enlightened and attributed it to their TM practice. You and your fellow researchers hooked them up to an EEG and found high-amplitude alpha waves and brainwave coherence. You then seem to say that proves they are enlightened.

It seems as if the research has "its outputs feeding back into its inputs." Circular reasoning.

You do not provide any criteria to judge the truth or falsity of their claims. Given the high prestige attributed to individuals who report such experiences in TM culture, it seems possible they could have a high motivation to mistakenly believe this about themselves—or to outright lie.

(A side note, when I participated in research on TM in the 70s, the local center and researchers picked individuals they considered to be "strong, clear" meditators. In other words, they chose subjects they believed would yield the results they wanted.)

Robin Carlsen made such claims of enlightenment, as did Andy Rhymer—both of whom are now disgraced within the TM community. One with a history of child molestation, I believe.

It is reported the Maharishi proclaimed both Carlsen and Rhymer "enlightened." Are we to accept some claims of enlightenment, but not others? If a child molester exhibits EEG coherence, is he enlightened?

If so, what is the actual benefit of enlightenment? Or EEG [...]
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 7:43:45 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

jmknapp53
(cont.)

The correlation you report doesn't seem to prove causality. We can't know if these individuals had high coherence from birth. Or if it arose due to another cause, such as a strict vegetarian diet, or other confounding factors.

Isn't this a case where researchers have elegantly measured and analyzed data—then drawn conclusions based on flawed premises? Namely, 1) that enlightenment exists, 2) that we can trust an individual's report of enlightenment, and 3) that any differences we measure in them from other populations must be proof of their claims?

How could we then justify your conclusion that "[t]his line of research could dramatically impact our understanding of the possible range of human development"?

We certainly can't prove any of these measured differences result from TM.

I have another question.

The occurrence of alpha rhythms in later stages of sleep has been correlated with sleep disorders..This is a discussion of "alpha-wave intrusion" in layman's terms.

Could you explain how transcendence during stage IV sleep differs from this sleep disorder?

I want to give you kudos, Dr. Travis, for your patience in explaining your work to a skeptical crowd—only a few of whom have scientific training. I certainly don't.

If more TM researchers and representatives were willing to discuss skeptical questions with critics, we might put to rest many doubts dogging the TM Org for decades.

J.

Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 7:48:00 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper John.
1. The paper does not say that TM is a causative factor. Rather it is a naturalistic observation of brain patterns that differentiate indivdiuals reporting the state of enlightenment from short term meditators, who have experienced pure consciousness during TM but not in activity, and non-TM.. A multi-discriminant analysis choose the variables that differentiated groups. So it is not circular. Rather, it was research to identify a number of physiological measures that might mark growth of enlightenment. Later research, then looked over 1 year of TM practice to see if this EEG pattern emerged over time with TM. That paper began to ask if Tm was a causative factor.
2. IN terms of alpha-delta sleep. That is discussed in another paper published in Sleep. Alpha-delta sleep is seen in fibromyalgia--put these individuals do not sleep deeply--they do not show stage 3 and 4. In the inidividuals reporting enlightenment, they had as much delta sleep as any other person, and those individuals did not report any physiological problems.
Hope this answers your questions.
Fred
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 6:33:02 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Fred and John- EEG and brains are rubbish....here comes the truth....
http://www.youtube.com/v/VbEfentoIJs&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="170" height="140
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 9:13:08 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byPaul Mason aka Premanand

Paul Mason aka Premanand
Oh Bjarne, well found.
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 1:03:58 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Mike Doughney
Given that Mr. Travis has invited comments, I may go ahead and obtain a copy of the paper via a subscribing local library and write up a review in a full post. In the meantime, I'll point out the obvious.

Like most scientific papers on TM, this is very preliminary research full of speculation. This is easy to see even in the brief abstract available online, in phrases like: "[default mode network] activation patterns could give insight into the nature of meditation practices" and "meditation practice may lead to a foundational or ‘ground’ state of cerebral functioning." I've added emphasis of the words "could" and "may." In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with pointing out why, and in what areas, further study might be worthwhile.

Meanwhile, let's check out the press release issued by MUM: "[TM produces] a unique state of "restful alertness." The frequent claim that TM is "unique" is certainly not supported by the abstract, and I'd make an educated guess that a full reading of the paper would offer no support that the state produced by TM is in any way "unique." Obviously, the study was only concerned with TM and eyes-closed rest. From where does this claim of uniqueness come, other than the decades-long habits of TM salesmen?

Here's another: "Enhances an individual's sense of "self" by activating what neuroscientists call the "default mode network" in the brain." This sentence isn't supported by what's in the abstract, which quite clearly states that the only thing measured during the study was EEG activity, nothing that might measure a person's "sense of 'self."" Again, the press release seems to be based more on the drawings in the "Fundamentals of Consciousness" pamphlet of the mid-1970's than on anything in this study.

This is the fundamental, general problem with research conducted by people associated with MUM and the movement; scientific study is never seen as an open-ended process that leads where it leads. Studies from this crowd are uniformly just part of the set design that's part of the propagandizing and proselytizing about the TM program, and to some degree, self-reinforcement for the people who are still involved with TM after decades of not much being accomplished. The scientific studies offered are almost always preliminary, speculative research, misused by the rest of the organization to attempt to support the usual sales pitch that TM is somehow unique, special, and effective.

The other interesting thing here is how, again, TM movement research seems to gravitate toward certain types of terminology from the scientific community, trying to twist it to apply to TM. Here, the term is "default ground state." People like Hagelin have long attempted to tie TM to some supposed "ground state" of consciousness by way of physics and unified field theory, and today that attempt to twist terminology has been extended to neuroscience through this paper.

What's going on here, at its root, is not science, but a process very much similar to that which we see from the proponents of abominations like "intelligent design." It is the attempt to gain unwarranted and undeserved legitimacy and popularity for a religious system of thought through the misappropriation and misuse of the language, but not the substance, of science. Internally, the terminology for the mechanics of TM and this alleged "ground state" is clearly religious: "Maharishi watered the roots by bringing to... students the Total Knowledge of the Veda with the direct experience of Ātmā and the Realization of Brahman." But that won't fly in a modern secular culture, thus the continued contortions and pretzel-thinking of "TM is not a religion" and the need for research that must reach the a priori conclusion that something unique and profound is happening as a result of TM practice. Problem is, the research never reaches those conclusions, but MUM's PR people will spin and twist research that doesn't say much of anything into what they need to attempt, once again, to promote TM to the outside world.
Saturday, March 06, 2010, 10:19:48 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byBjarnejmknapp53Gina ruth
Just a quick thought and if I have time I will post on the entire study, which I have read. First, the phrase "default mode network" is a term of art. Basicially, it means what is activated in the brain when it is at rest, not focused on external tasks.

The term "ground state" is used in the paper by analogy to physics and is not a defined term in neurology.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 2:01:25 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate Bjarne MD, PhD, GGTW
Also as I stated a short while ago more than 1800 articles are published on the subject meditation if You type "meditation" in the searchfield on PubMed. But most medical researchers are NOT using their publications for promoting results in a PR maschine. Sorry, this is manipulation with onle one purpose....to sell a product through a press-release. Feel ashame! If You use PubMed on the present Journal, one thing is that the journal has a quite low impactfactor another that a number of articles of more importance to the use of meditation are published in the same issue eg:
An investigation of brain processes supporting meditation.

Baerentsen KB, Stødkilde-Jørgensen H, Sommerlund B, Hartmann T, Damsgaard-Madsen J, Fosnaes M, Green AC.
Department of Psychology, University of Aarhus, Aarhus, Denmark. klaus.baerentsen@psy.au.dk
Meditation is an ancient spiritual practice, which aims to still the fluctuations of the mind. We investigated meditation with fMRI in order to identify and characterise both the "neural switch" mechanism used in the voluntary shift from normal consciousness to meditation and the "threshold regulation mechanism" sustaining the meditative state. Thirty-one individuals with 1.5-25 years experience in meditation were scanned using a blocked on-off design with 45 s alternating epochs during the onset of respectively meditation and normal relaxation. Additionally, 21 subjects were scanned during 14.5 min of sustained meditation. The data were analysed with SPM and ICA. During the onset of meditation, activations were found bilaterally in the putamen and the supplementary motor cortex, while deactivations were found predominately in the right hemisphere, the precuneus, the posterior cingulum and the parieto-temporal area. During sustained meditation, SPM analysis revealed activation in the head of nucleus caudatus. Extensive deactivations were observed in white matter in the right hemisphere, i.e. mainly in the posterior occipito-parieto-temporal area and in the frontal lobes. ICA identified 38 components including known baseline-resting state components, one of which not only overlaps with the activated area revealed in the SPM analysis but extends further into frontal, temporal, parietal and limbic areas, and might presumably constitute a combination of frontoparietal and cinguloopercular task control systems. The identified component processes display varying degrees of correlation. We hypothesise that a proper characterisation of brain processes during meditation will require an operational definition of brain dynamics matching a stable state of mind.

I find this an example of misuse of research, not with a main purpose of helping fellow humans, but simply to make a profit.
Saturday, March 06, 2010, 10:37:18 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGinajmknapp53

Bjarne MD, PhD, GGTW
(My new title GGTW, meaning God´s Gift To Women)....see how easy it is to promote Yourself with fancy titles from dubious "Universities" ....fake it until You make it
Saturday, March 06, 2010, 10:48:14 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGinajmknapp53

ruth
Well, you may be GGTW.
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 10:44:36 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate


Bjarne
Dont think so Ruth, Unfortunately John seem to be a male
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 11:33:45 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

jmknapp53
Now, Bjarne, we both know I'm not God's gift to anyone!



J.
Monday, March 08, 2010, 11:44:57 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate ruth

Monday, March 08, 2010, 1:20:27 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

douglas mesner
One has to wonder why this dippy fool's philosophical ramblings are on the FBI website: http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2009/may2009/brain.htm. I am going to write the FBI and ask that this drivel be removed - I hope others are moved to do the same. In the paper, the lobotomy-eyed, broad-grinning Travis touts the benefits of napping (in the religious context of TM) and concludes: "Research specific to the law enforcement profession has revealed the importance of spirituality to its members.31 Additional studies should be undertaken to help officers remain effective in their work and thrive as human beings throughout their careers." The last thing we need are ineffectual mentally crippled law enforcement officers taking seriously the idea that they can prevent or reduce violence via the Maharishi Effect.
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 8:09:45 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGinajmknapp53

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper
Hi
If you would like the paper so that you can be more knowledgeable about the discussion, email me and I'll send it to you.
All the best
Fred
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 6:28:54 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGinaGuest

Bjarne
Thanks Fred. I will get it for free from my exellent library service at our University Hospital- dont forget Sweden is selecting people for the Nobel-price in medicine
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 8:48:37 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina

ruth
Fred, your response is a fair response and I do not support the name calling that sometimes goes on here. I have not read the paper yet that is the subject of John's post so what I say next may not apply to this particular study. The most significant issue I have when brain activity is correlated to meditative states is the problem of determining exactly those correlations mean. Basically, it is a validity problem. As you know, just because research is consistent with an hypothesis doesn't mean that the hypothesis is correct. Bjarne pointed to the problem with his cited study which notes: "We hypothesise that a proper characterisation of brain processes during meditation will require an operational definition of brain dynamics matching a stable state of mind."

I would appreciate it if you would send me a copy of the study at ruthsimplicity@yahoo.com. I am mostly retired so anything that means less work for me is a good thing!

But I will read the paper and I appreciate your stopping by and sharing your views.
Sunday, March 07, 2010, 11:06:43 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGinaGuest Vaj
Would someone who got a copy of this paper, please send me a copy off-list? Thanks in advance and thanks to Fred for joining in the conversation--EEG and meditation are one of my favorite topics, I can't wait to read it.

V.
Monday, March 08, 2010, 4:46:33 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

douglas mesner
Did Fred join the conversation? Good. Hopefully he doesn't fail to answer the questions posed by our friend "The Watcher" when Watcher suggests "an honest report into the bizarre claims of John Hagelin and his unified field ideas and how he tries to con the unknowledgable into believing there is an actual physics basis to yogic flying or astrology?"

and goes on to ask:

Or how about the claims that groups of "coherence creators" reduce negative traits in society as a whole? Aren't you all embarassed at the failure of the invincible America project or are you still claiming it's all a phase transition?

These are all good areas of research Fred, if you are interested in science and think it's a good way of demonstrating the value of things I think you should get on it and let the world know. I suspect you already know that most of the TM programmes are nonsense but as the organisation makes money from them and have a huge amount of belief invested in the vedas it might be embarassing to admit that it's all hot air. Am I right?"

Is he right, Fred?

But then, Fred goes on to say, "There have been 25 published studies that have investiagted effects of groups practicing TM on measureable indicators."
The Maharishi Effect. Either Fred doesn't take this forum seriously, or he's hopelessly delusional.
Monday, March 08, 2010, 6:16:39 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Mike Doughney
I'll also join the chorus of "please send me a copy" of this paper since I've thus far been unsuccessful at finding it by way of the libraries where I have credentials. mike (at) doughney (dot) net works.

I think that Douglas raises an important point, which I understand as, does Fred take this forum or even more generally scientific endeavors in the same way, or as seriously, as others of us do. After 3 decades plus of this sort of thing, and perhaps complete divergence from basic shared understandings and the common meanings of words that's the product of long-term involvement with the TMO, such interactions can be pointless or absurd.

It's easy to focus on the most recent flurry of press releases, particularly for those unfamiliar with decades of the TM movement's habits of doing this sort of thing over and over. I was around when the TM-Sidhi "flying" was announced, talked about, but still kept under wraps. I caught TM movement lawyer Steven Druker, way back in 1979, insisting that research on gravitational effects of the alleged "flying sidhi." (link) More than 30 years later, research on the most outrageous claims still hasn't materialized, and I think it's safe to say that it won't. All the TM movement's press releases avoid the obvious: the most high-profile, outrageous claims made for TM programs through the years have never been backed up with any research whatsoever.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 2:41:14 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina Bjarne
Abstract easily available on PubMed;

Conscious Cogn. 2010 Feb 16. [Epub ahead of print]
Focused attention, open monitoring and automatic self-transcending: Categories to organize meditations from Vedic, Buddhist and Chinese traditions.

Travis F, Shear J.
Center for the Brain, Consciousness, and Cognition, Maharishi University of Management, 1000 North 4th Street, Fairfield, IA 52557, United States; Maharishi University of Management Research Institute, Maharishi Vedic City, IA 52557, United States.
This paper proposes a third meditation-category-automatic self-transcending- to extend the dichotomy of focused attention and open monitoring proposed by Lutz. Automaticself-transcending includes techniques designed to transcend their own activity. This contrasts with focused attention, which keeps attention focused on an object; and open monitoring, which keeps attention involved in the monitoring process. Each category was assigned EEG bands, based on reported brain patterns during mental tasks, and meditations were categorized based on their reported EEG. Focused attention, characterized by beta/gamma activity, included meditations from Tibetan Buddhist, Buddhist, and Chinese traditions. Open monitoring, characterized by theta activity, included meditations from Buddhist, Chinese, and Vedic traditions. Automaticself-transcending, characterized by alpha1 activity, included meditations from Vedic and Chinese traditions. Between categories, the included meditations differed in focus, subject/object relation, and procedures. These findings shed light on the common mistake of averaging meditations together to determine mechanisms or clinical effects. Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
PMID: 20167507 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 8:50:07 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate


Bjarne
EEG is a hell of a foggy land in the context of medical research......and You know it Fred. So far I doubt every word in this abstract until I have read the whole paper. Its belittleling ancient Buddhist traditions and meditation...Dalai Lama, seem to me to have pretty good results from his meditations. But on the positive site I notice that finally we might have an explanation to the difference between focus and spaceout...trancesimilar sleepstates?
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 9:04:10 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Vaj
Douglas, just becasue you don't agree with Fred Travis is no reason to be disrespectful towards him.

Maybe if you posted in a more respectful tone, he'd answer your questions?
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 9:28:12 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

douglas mesner
I was really just quoting questions from a prior post left by a different person who really didn't take a disrespectful tone at all. So why didn't Fred answer him? I should feel that if Fred had legitimate reasonable answers for such direct questions, he wouldn't be so tender as to leave them unanswered due to objectionable tone. To me, it's not really a discussion when you have a so-called scientist who isn't willing to admit that ludicrous notions like "yogic flight" aren't grounded in reality.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 12:11:59 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53

Gina
Doug asks: "So why didn't Fred answer him?"

TM teachers are trained to dodge questions and not answer them. They only answer what they want to answer. That's Maharishi's way. The hope is that the questioner will forget the original question - not likely to happen with this crowd!

If we continue, and Fred does inward digging to provide answers, Fred may feel some tinges of anxiety. He will term the anxiety "unstressing," return to the domes to Program to settle himself in trance before returning to the conversation.

On the other hand, honest discourse has the risk of exit counseling him. Not likely to succeed after his lifetime of TM-MMY devotion.

From my memory, Fred is one of those smart, well-intentioned TMers that Bjarne mentioned above. He is a True Believer and TM-based brain research is Fred's life.

g
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 11:31:41 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byBjarne

ruth
My impression is that Fred Travis came to respond specifically to John's blog post and to say don't make assumptions, read the study. He isn't really agreeing to be interviewed on all things TM.



Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 1:48:10 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGuest

douglas mesner
And I would say his "science" is entirely suspect if he can't answer basic questions about TM's absurd claims, whether this particular study is about Yogic Flight and The Maharishi Effect or not.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 1:59:20 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byGina

Gina
Ruth, you make an important point (as always).

However, Fred's position as a public spokesperson, recruiter, scientist and faculty of TM imply that he is an expert on "all things TM." It's natural that everyone here wants to ask him / confront him with specifics about research and MUM functioning.

We know that Bevan and the Rajas are really the folks to discuss these concerns with. Fred lacks their level of authority in the Movement as he ultimately reports to Bevan and the echelon in Holland.

g
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 11:36:00 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53

Bjarne
As I learned from MMY....if I am not getting answers from Fred I will call head of department Dr Raja Ram
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 12:13:51 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53

Tanemon
Above, Gina mentioned some common adverse effects of long-term TM programs and/or rounding. She suggested:
"How about studying measures of life functionality from prolonged rounding, say after several months or more of rounding, or years on the 'Creating Coherence Program' (CCP)?

- the ability to hold a job (not just live off the family trust fund)
- the ability to maintain long term intimate relationships (Most TM echelon are unmarried. If they have children, the majority of those children use extensive drugs and alcohol to self-medicate as teens, then leave TM)
- the capacity for independent decision making (life style, personal goals, manner of dress, etc)
- the capacity for rational discourse"

I certainly did not do as much rounding as many people who became deeply involved with the TMO did, and my life was almost nothing like that lived by many in centers like Fairfield. I did practice TM twice daily for many years, and attended some West-Coast-Canada residence courses where we did some rounding. But I believe Gina's little list (and I'm certain, because she uses "e.g.", that she could have expanded that list) is representative of some of the effects I noticed among some "serious TMers".

What I noticed in myself as adverse results of TM practice might also be items investigatable, by way of research into the common results of TM practice amongst groups of TMers: Periods of inability to concentrate well (while not meditating - i.e., in "everyday life situations". Tendency to dissociate when faced with challenging emotional circumstances. Becoming inefficient or slow at everydays tasks. Possible lowering of I.Q. as measured in a standard test. Spacing-out while driving a vehicle (might be investigated via driving records - police records, insurance records).

I'll attest to having experienced these sorts of things to a greater or lesser degree (it varied) over a period of years. I don't say they are permanent results. For me, they began to slowly diminish as soon as I stopped doing 2x20 TM, and even more quickly when I totally quit doing TM. Further, once I went through a particular therapeutic process, the remaining mental fogginess disappeared and I became happier, more confident, more able, and more energetic.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 5:20:13 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Gina
Tanemon mentioned other common effects seen in long term meditators:

Periods of inability to concentrate well (while not meditating - i.e., in "everyday life situations". Tendency to dissociate when faced with challenging emotional circumstances. Becoming inefficient or slow at everydays tasks.

Decades later, I still dissociate when faced with challenging emotional situations. I can return and address the situation the following day.
I don't know if this tendency comes from TMeditating practice, per se, or also from the first decades of my life under TM cult pressure, judgements, inadequacies (typical cult psycho-emotional "abuse" which created a deeply embedded "KMS" - "Keep Mouth Shut" - response to emotional challenges. Fortunately I am able to hold down a demanding job and raised great kids regardless.

I also failed to mention.. about the endorphin/addiction concern with TM.. in my response to Fred up above in this thread -- endorphin measures could also possibly contribute to understanding the many many TM casualties who are unable to hold down jobs and live now as psychologically disabled on Social Security benefits, for inability to focus. Others are labeled as PTSD after cult life. Then there are the suicides.

And who would write grants for such studies? And who could possibly have access to a cross section of TMers and former TMers for a truly balanced view?
Studying ONLY those in Fairfield is not a balanced sample, since many left FF but are still affected. Others spent little time in FF, but were in TM communities large and small elsewhere. What about Debbie Henning in a mental institution and her late husband, Doug Henning, dead from following Maharishi's advice and therapies?

Since Maharishi dictated to only study positive measures of TM, am sure these considerations would never be studied by MUM researchers.

Even the"Maharishi Effect" retrospective studies only included measurable social indicators which put TM in a positive light; indicators that did not give the desired results were simply dropped from reports.

g
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 10:34:52 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53

Tanemon
Gina, I guess I'm talking about the effects noticed in TM "bliss ninnies" (as some TM teachers from sothwestern British Columbia, Canada, used to term them). These were people who for a while were smilingly "blissed out" but - in many cases - found that this state led to a functional ineptitude. Then they gradually sank into frustration & sadness, since the feedback to them from the world (the job/career world, the social world) was negative.

Okay, Gina, you lived in FF. I realize that what I'm asking for here would only be casual observation or "anecdotal information," but what proportion of the FF TMer popultion would you say seemed to have slid into this unfortunate state of living? Would you think 20%, or a third, or...??
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 7:47:43 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53 John Nickson
Fred,

I think it shows courage and integrity for you to take part in discussions on this site-thanks, much appreciated !

John Nickson.
Tuesday, March 09, 2010, 11:35:13 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – ModerateLiked byjmknapp53

ruth
When purusing the comments keep in mind several different studies have been mentioned. The one I read is the one that is the original topic of the blog post and which Travis suggested we read before critiquing.
Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 4:23:46 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

alex
Dear Fred, I remember your sympatatic face, you didn't change a lot.
But about scientific researches, I have my doubts.
I joined one at the begining of meditating, and was asked to come back for a second one to see how intelligence raised.
Only the positive meditator were invited. In total 4 including me and my husband.
this specific pshych. research was used on a big scale! (4 people!)
I was very positive about my experiences with TM, I didn't stop because of bad experiences. But, as a teacher I saw so many people falling down the rabbit hole!
People who were very dear to me, changed from normal persons into.......????
And I couldn't agree with all the things Maharishi wanted from us to do, to say to meditators etc.who were in really big problems because of the meditation. And checkingnotes is not enough, to help them.

The scientific research branche is wide.
As long as you don't take all the thinks matter to it, into credit, you never get a objective result from it.
See, the scientific research on global warming.
In Tilburg, Holland they did the research which was the ground of all the later research, and the ground of the outcome was that global warming was a great danger to the planet.
Now, they found out, that they did forget a very important thing to take into account.

So... scientific research is mostly very subjective. This scientific research says this, the other says that.
I don't want to offend you or something, but I just wanted to say this to you.
greetings Alex
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 5:42:22 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate alex
ps. Fred, even the preconceived opinion of the researcher has a big impact on the outcoming of that specific research!
Thursday, March 11, 2010, 5:47:23 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

ruth
Fred is aware of this. In the study that was discussed in the original blog post certain controls were used to help minimize researcher expectation by making the researchers blind to who was in what group when reading the EEG results.
Friday, March 12, 2010, 10:21:25 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

alex
as long as they dont know what to take into account with a certain research project, the outcome is not OK, not objective and so NOT thrue.
experience is more valid, it is part of ones live
Saturday, March 13, 2010, 10:54:47 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

alex
and as long as they just take "so called possitive, stable, healthy" people for research, it stinks!
Saturday, March 13, 2010, 10:55:46 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Gina
Hello Fred:

Thank you for your kind response to my questions.

I appreciate your explanation of keeping the TM studies to those who would be, as you described "normally functioning."

For your studies, who defines "normally functioning." I know of some TMers who were in studies but unable to hold jobs, they were living on welfare checks. Is that "normally functioning."?

Regarding possible ill effects from rounding, why have there not been studies done on the effects of rounding? Everyone on rouding courses joke about the "space cases" and "heavy unstressors"... those are insider terms for the obvious problems experienced by other course participants.

Yet, without studies on the effects of rounding, every MUM student spends one out of three months on a rounding program.

BTW, Maharishi once guaranteed Cosmic Consciousness to all MIU graduates, because they would've spent a full year rounding by the time they received their Bachelor's degree. Has Cosmic Consciousness been scientifically defined? ... but I digress...

You wrote : "Let’s look at the big picture. NIH Mental Health estimates 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml). Since 25% of the general population has a diagnosable mental disorder, some of them will be coming to TM with that disorder. It would not be that TM caused the disorder; they came with that."

If that is the case, then the 25% of TMers who have mental disorders should access appropriate mental help without stigma. Yet, Maharishi taught that one should not seek psychological therapy. Maharishi said that therapy "Only spreading the mud." TM was the "best solution to transcend beyond the problem." With transending, the problems were promised to dissolve.

Maharishi, and all TM teachers, teach that TM is the solution to everything. Meditate, attend a course, round, learn the siddhis to gain perfect health, immerse in the absolute, improve mental clarity, reduce blood pressure, bring more bliss, etc. etc.

Yet, those who devotedly practice TM and follow "the knowledge" will then abstain from seeking psychological help when they have anxiety or other problems. All problems are attributed it to "heavy unstressing." "Unstressing" is an unstudied and non-scientific term that is commonly understood amongst TMers to ambiguously refer to any uncomfortable sensation either physical, emotional, or psychological.

Those who really want help, will attend as many advanced TM courses as possible and avoid seeking appropriate therapy or counseling. If anyone claimed to have sought therapy on a course application, they would not be accepted from the course.

In this case, TM and TM programs DOES indirectly further (preexisting?) mental conditions by discouraging appropriate treatment in favor of increased amounts of time spent in trance state, yagyas for treatment, jyotish astrology, unstudied Ayur-Ved therapies and gemstones (all of which profit MVED, of course)

(continues on next comment)
Sunday, March 14, 2010, 9:12:22 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Gina
(continued from above)

The Swedish study which you quote:
"The percent of people in psychiatric hospitals who practice TM was 100 smaller than the percentage of people in practicing TM in the population. This suggests TM does not cause psychiatric problems."

Your conclusion is not logical, as Bjarne referred to in his post above. This is typical TM pseudo-science rationale that does not hold up under scrutiny.

Of course the number of people diagnosed with psychiatric problems will be less in a population that avidly avoids such disgnosis and treatment! As Bjarne stated, the numbers in psychiatric hospitals do not include the suicides, nor those in prison.

Once again, devoute TMers will not seek psychiatric help, thus are unlikely to be diagnosed and find themselves in a mental institution and would not be included in such a count.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement: "Bottom line, is to date, there is no systematic research that indicates that long rounding, under proper supervision, causes permanent mental problems."

There is also no systematic research to indicate that long rounding does NOT cause permanent mental problems.

How many long term meditators, who left the TMO and have long term problems have you studied? John Knapp, Rick Ross, Steven Hassan (well respected cult experts) and the International Cultic Studies Association have seen hundreds of TM related casulties. Some of us (myself included) have TM casualties in our personal lives.

For example, how many of those who've spent years on the Mother Divine Program or Purusha program would be able to integrate in a non-TM Movement social or work context? Most of those Purusha and Mother Divine course participants would not fit anyone's criteria of "normal functioning" and would thus be excluded from your studies. Yet, their lifestyle is seen as the epitome of TM devotion. Why is that?

Thank you for your kind consideration.

g
Sunday, March 14, 2010, 9:13:22 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Agree Gina! Its worse, its pure unscientific fantacy - nothing to do with epidemiological research. Reasons I stated above. With such conclusions made in public You are soon out of scientific publishing business Fred.....peer reviewers are not that stupid
Sunday, March 14, 2010, 9:54:05 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Gina
Fred,

Oh, and.. you stated that "there is no systematic research that indicates that long rounding, under proper supervision, causes permanent mental problems."

But are there studies that reveal temporary mental problems?

In an earlier comment, you stated that you'd also been concerned about such problems observed with rounding and that it needed to be studies. Now I cannot find that comment. Has it been deleted or perhaps I missed it?

If studies have revealed temporary problems for a small percentage of people while rounding, why should anyone willingly participate in a program that could put them at risk for temporary mental problems?

There should, actually to be ethical, there MUST be longtidunal studies on those who've had negative experiences rounding.

Until those so-called "heavy unstressors" with the tics, psychotic episodes, anxiety and anger bouts are documented and followed, the TM Movement should not be pushing rounding programs to heavily.

It is unwise and unethical to heartily promote a program that so powerfully causes alterations in personality, mood, life direction and "unstressing" until side effects and appopriate recovery therapies are documented.

g
5 days ago, 2:07:40 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Tanemon
How about the "bliss ninny" thing? What concerned me - more than bouts of anger or even temporary psychotic episodes - was the bliss ninny phenomenon. (This is due to the fact that, in my observation, psychotic episodes and bouts of heavy anger haven been rarer.)

What do I mean by "bliss ninny"? This was a term I encountered among western Canadian TM teachers, who would use it off-handedly when not in a public situation. It may have had wider currency. (And, by the way, I was never a TM teacher myself).

The "bliss ninny" is a smiling, satisfied TMer - however, he or she may not be competent at the customary, basic skills needed in modern Western (particularly American or Canadian) society. Bliss ninnies might not be good drivers, good at job skills, good at ordinary day-to-day conversation. Frequently, they can be a shade bumbling or clumsy. Also, they might not be good at dealing with challenging emotions involved in relationships and childrearing. They might not be aware of current events and issues that people in a modern democracy are supposed to be aware of. Charitable people see them as "dear souls" who are "in the clouds" or "in there own world".

Now is this an especially bad thing? Probably not, in he grand scheme of things. But what about the "200% of life"? What about "success in life" - which in the West does not mean simply the metaphysical side, but material competency and everyday comfort as well?

By the way, th really long rounding courses were not necessarily required in order to produce the condition of which I speak.
Yesterday, 11:59:17 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate Tanemon
How about the "bliss ninny" thing? What concerned me - more than bouts of anger or even temporary psychotic episodes - was the bliss ninny phenomenon. (This is due to the fact that, in my observation, psychotic episodes and bouts of heavy anger haven been rarer.)

What do I mean by "bliss ninny"? This was a term I encountered among western Canadian TM teachers, who would use it off-handedly when not in a public situation. It may have had wider currency. (And, by the way, I was never a TM teacher myself).

The "bliss ninny" is a smiling, satisfied TMer - however, he or she may not be competent at the customary, basic skills needed in modern Western (particularly American or Canadian) society. Bliss ninnies might not be good drivers, good at job skills, good at ordinary day-to-day conversation. Frequently, they can be a shade bumbling or clumsy. Also, they might not be good at dealing with challenging emotions involved in relationships and childrearing. They might not be aware of current events and issues that people in a modern democracy are supposed to be aware of. Charitable people see them as "dear souls" who are "in the clouds" or "in there own world".

Now is this an especially bad thing? Probably not, in he grand scheme of things. But what about the "200% of life"? What about "success in life" - which in the West does not mean simply the metaphysical side, but material competency and everyday comfort as well?

By the way, th really long rounding courses were not necessarily required in order to produce the condition of which I speak.
Yesterday, 11:59:37 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate Tanemon
How about the "bliss ninny" thing? What concerned me - more than bouts of anger or even temporary psychotic episodes - was the bliss ninny phenomenon. (This is due to the fact that, in my observation, psychotic episodes and bouts of heavy anger haven been rarer.)

What do I mean by "bliss ninny"? This was a term I encountered among western Canadian TM teachers, who would use it off-handedly when not in a public situation. It may have had wider currency. (And, by the way, I was never a TM teacher myself).

The "bliss ninny" is a smiling, satisfied TMer - however, he or she may not be competent at the customary, basic skills needed in modern Western (particularly American or Canadian) society. Bliss ninnies might not be good drivers, good at job skills, good at ordinary day-to-day conversation. Frequently, they can be a shade bumbling or clumsy. Also, they might not be good at dealing with challenging emotions involved in relationships and childrearing. They might not be aware of current events and issues that people in a modern democracy are supposed to be aware of. Charitable people see them as "dear souls" who are "in the clouds" or "in there own world".

Now is this an especially bad thing? Probably not, in he grand scheme of things. But what about the "200% of life"? What about "success in life" - which in the West does not mean simply the metaphysical side, but material competency and everyday comfort as well?

By the way, th really long rounding courses were not necessarily required in order to produce the condition of which I speak.
Yesterday, 11:59:56 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate Paul Mason
Gina, yes strange how stuff has gone astray, I recall the comment you are referring to, the comment that has gone missing is:-

Dr Fred Travis, author of the paper Hi Gina
I am also concerned about the issues you bring up about long rounding.
Thank you for bringing these to my attention again.
All the best
Fred
Monday, March 08, 2010, 2:46:28


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5 days ago, 3:53:50 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Thanks Paul for keeping record of the references, a lot seem to have disappeared lately. Please rejuvenate the comments on old Sigmond, Jung and John
5 days ago, 9:52:26 PM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Gina! The medical journal "Psychiatry" has quite a high impactfactor. The following paper on meditation and depersonalization:


Psychiatry. 1990 May;53(2):158-68.

Depersonalization and meditation.
Castillo RJ.

Department of Anthropology, Harvard University.

From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization; 2) the meanings in the mind of the meditator regarding the experience of depersonalization will determine to a great extent whether anxiety is present as part of the experience; 3) there need not be any significant anxiety or impairment in social or occupational functioning as a result of depersonalization; 4) a depersonalized state can become an apparently permanent mode of functioning; 5) patients with Depersonalization Disorder may be treated through a process of symbolic healing--that is, changing the meanings associated with depersonalization in the mind of the patient, thereby reducing anxiety and functional impairment; 6) panic/anxiety may be caused by depersonalization if catastrophic interpretations of depersonalization are present.

PMID: 2191357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Publication Types, MeSH

....think the famous Mumbai Yogi Nisargadatta was quite honest when he claimed: "Its no childs play"
4 days ago, 12:35:02 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Gina
Interesting! Thanks, Bjarne and Paolo!

My now-grown daughter always had anxiety in response to TM, even as a child attending Maharishi's elementary school. Needless to say, she does not do TM now, and her younger brothers were never initiated.

Permanent depersonalization = Cosmic Consciousness?
.. always witnessing, not connecting to anything including to one's own identity.
Sad state.
Oh right, even Maharishi said that Cosmic Consciousness can feel empty.. but the next step, God Consciousness (ever the next carrot to lure one onward) would be full of beauty and joy as one experiences the "finest relative."

What mythology!

Thanks for a reference that documents pathology in a small sample, only 6, of meditators experiencing depersonalization.

g
4 days ago, 2:53:04 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
I have to say that in general I am not against meditation per se as a valuable form of treatment of stress related disorders. In fact ist becoming mainstream. The initial studies by Keith Wallace with cardiologist Herbert Benson as supervisor were published in very high impact journals such as Lancet and science back in eraly seventies.
Herbert Bensons hypothesis on The relaxation response as the opposite to Hans Selyes stress response as late as 1997 in the science.1997 Dec;278(5344):1694-5 is a major step forward in the understanding of the mechanism in many meditation techniques. In 1997 Benson was since long an outcast in TMO because he is a scientist and not a TB in the moneymaking TMO. There is a need in healthcare of secular meditation techniques. High quality randomized controlled trials with larger subject groups, longer follow up periods and more experienced meditators are crucial in order to evaluate long-term effects AND side effects.
4 days ago, 9:48:10 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate

Bjarne
Fred What is Your opinion on the pioneer work of Dr Herbert Benson?

for info on Dr Benson visit:

http://www.relaxationresponse.org/
4 days ago, 11:47:01 AM– Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate Bjarne
....awaiting answers from the MIU reaesrch institution Fairfield, as You know Fred, open, mature discussion is an essential part of research....

Dr. Benson's research in to meditation
began with the Transcendental Meditation
technique, as taught by Maharishi Mahesh
Yogi. But he is maintaining a neutral, objective
position, not aligning with any particular